War, Leadership Units

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WM - The Waste Mage
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:14 pm

Make the spell effect all enemy units. Just give saves or higher percent chance for 'no effect' decreasing chance on up to 'defection'. That way its a useful spell at any point in the game.

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JB - Jana Boulderbrew
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by JB - Jana Boulderbrew » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:22 pm

I would add more ways to counter it... Other than murdering each mage. Allow Bless Army to make a unit immune (or Save bonus). Add saves based on troop type...

Other mages can already counter.
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HaQ - Hakim al-Qadr
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by HaQ - Hakim al-Qadr » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:34 pm

You can counter with Dispel. Or Protection from Realm Magic (though I don't think any have that currently). Or with a counter-defection.

I think on balance Defection isn't terribly overpowered. Early game it is great - but early game is also when there aren't many sources everywhere to cast it. Late game it will be entirely meh - I would go with subversion as a surgical one-hit disabling move against a massed army. I'd suggest Mass Destruction though is too expensive at 10RP/unit. Defection is almost always better than Mass Destruction (except in the corner case where you are trying to force a death check and hope it works). Subversion is probably also great when someone has an army led by a LT leader - you could turn the entire army potentially! Though Subversion is only for 1 action so a bit trickier to pull off successfully.

I do think Defection - Subversion - Mass Destruction cost per unit are out of line with each other. I don't see the merit of Defection being so much cheaper.
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JB - Jana Boulderbrew
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by JB - Jana Boulderbrew » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:39 pm

With all the restrictions placed on growth, I do wonder if we will ever get to a usual end game. I believe some of this is a result of playing in a low growth environment.
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TH - The Hunt
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by TH - The Hunt » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:44 pm

Solution: Use more text from the Book of Magecraft. Bolded the relevant parts for emphasis.

1: Many early game regents should be unable to cast it due to the level requirement.
2: The number of target units is very, very limited. It's not clear why this was removed, even using Levels of War.

6th-level caster
defection
(Enchantment/C harm)
Regency: 1 RP/unit
Gold: 2 GB/unit
Required Source: 2
Duration: 3 action rounds
A wizard can cast this spell to steal a military unit from an opposing regent, thereby bringing the unit under his own control. The defecting unit is treated as one of the wizard's units (or that of another regent or an appointed lieutenant stated in the casting of the spell) for three action rounds. The unit will follow its new leader's orders implicitly. If the unit survives this enforced service, it returns to its original regent when the spell's duration lapses.

The caster can affect one unit for every four experience levels; thus, a 15th-level wizard could bring three enemy units under his banner. The units to be affected must be in the casting wizard's domain or in any adjacent province. In addition, the wizard must know the location of the units to be affected by the defection spell. Any attempt to command an affected military unit with an order other than those typically given in battle will break the spell. Thus, a unit could not be ordered to run off a cliff, for example.
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MS - Meaghan Smith
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by MS - Meaghan Smith » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:50 pm

It's roughly that powerful now when you factor in tiers.

Level 8 can defect 2 Tier IVs, 2 Tier 3 and 1 Tier 2, 4 Tier 2, 8 Tier 1, or any other combination up to 8 levels. And when you go for the 8 Tier 1s, the cost is far greater than two Tier IVs.

I agree with Exalted though, Mass Destruction is overly expensive for it's effect and subversion seems the same (or Defection is too cheap).
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WM - The Waste Mage
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:56 pm

I’d like it to hit all in province and make it more expensive. Base d20 saves with bonus per tier level and maybe bonus if in a home province. 12 for tier 0 11 for tier 1 10
For tier 2 9for tier 3 8 for tier 4 and 7 for tier 5. Someone better at math can tweak that better probably.

Can do same for mass destruction. Make it expensive to
Cast but it hits all units and they all save or die.

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TH - The Hunt
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by TH - The Hunt » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:56 pm

I think for a mage against a horde of low-tier units, I'd rather see a Fear spell than mass defections. Just inspire a bunch of units to panic, with the cost being multiplied by tier, so it's very effective at getting levies out of the province (or convincing them to disband if they're home) but not so good against trained troops (and tier V holy units might be outright immune).
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TH - The Hunt
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by TH - The Hunt » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:00 pm

I like the 'save or die' idea for mass destruction, though I'm sure someone is going to hate it if a mage casts it on a province with 40 units in it. Maybe the cost should still scale. Also, it changes the nature of the spell a lot if it isn't being directed at an enemy.
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DCT - Destiny Corben-Talas
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by DCT - Destiny Corben-Talas » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:25 am

AF - Areida Faderan wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:44 pm
Solution: Use more text from the Book of Magecraft. Bolded the relevant parts for emphasis.
Because a level 4 caster can affect a knight unit. In our game, u need level 5 for that.
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Nur Hayati Corben-Talas

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