Dispel Realm Magic

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DM Juan
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Dispel Realm Magic

Post by DM Juan » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:37 pm

Interactions with: Mass Destruct (and other instantaneous effects).

Type 2 Dispel (Arcane) effectively counter magic can, of course.

Type 1? Less clear to me. Mimicking base dispel vs fireball suggests no. When read implies long term casting, so maybe as contingency?

It has wide ranging implications either way, so looking for thoughts on it ...

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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Dispel Realm Magic

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:42 pm

Yeah, type 2 can even prevent a type 1 from being used, so it should work against instantaneous effects. For type 1, it's instantaneous itself, so it can counter permanent duration effects but not instantaneous ones, because there's nothing left to target. If type 1 could be used to prevent instantaneous spells, what would type 2 be for?
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RaH - Rassan al Hamam
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Re: Dispel Realm Magic

Post by RaH - Rassan al Hamam » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:48 pm

Dispel Magic:
First, it removes spells and spell-like effects (including device effects and innate abilities) from creatures or objects. Second, it disrupts the casting or use of these in the area of effect at the instant the dispel is cast. Third, it destroys magical potions (which are treated as 12th level for purposes of this spell).

I guess the second effect could be used to try to counter a spell being cast? Im not sure how exactly it worked in 2nd edition, but in later editions you could use Dispel Magic as a counterspell. You need to be first in initiative though and still make a Dispel Level check.

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HaQ - Hakim al-Qadr
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Re: Dispel Realm Magic

Post by HaQ - Hakim al-Qadr » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:00 pm

AF - Areida Faderan wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:42 pm
Yeah, type 2 can even prevent a type 1 from being used, so it should work against instantaneous effects. For type 1, it's instantaneous itself, so it can counter permanent duration effects but not instantaneous ones, because there's nothing left to target. If type 1 could be used to prevent instantaneous spells, what would type 2 be for?
Agreed. If Type 1 can effectively be a better Type 2 - why does Type 2 even exist?
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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Dispel Realm Magic

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:00 pm

For mass destruction specifically, there could be a window of opportunity to actively dispel it at some point between when the realm spell is cast and unleashed on the battlefield, while it's 'being held' by the caster and just waiting for them to lay eyes on the enemy. The wrinkle there is that dispel magic targets a province, not a caster. On the other hand, once mass destruction is cast, it's can only be released in the same province it was cast in, so maybe the province could be considered as, at least partly, 'holding the spell' along with the wizard who's holding it.

That's the only way I could see dispel realm magic working against mass destruction, if it disrupts the spell after it's cast but before it's deployed on the battlefield.

Edit: This wouldn't work as a contingency, without preknowledge it'd be a shot in the dark. If the wizard didn't cast mass destruction before the battle and you cast dispel realm magic to preempt it, as if they did, your dispel would be wasted. Unless it worked on something else you wanted dispelled, anyway.
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JB - Jana Boulderbrew
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Re: Dispel Realm Magic

Post by JB - Jana Boulderbrew » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:28 pm

I would add a save to the targeted troops. As a base something like 20-Tier.. So a T3 would need to get a 17 or better on a D20.

Then modify it based on half the level of priests or wizards leading the army being targeted. (Highest only) .. So a level 8 priest leading troops can be assumed to cast some protection spells and the save on the same T3 unit would be 13 or betting on a D20.

You could also make the destruction spell cost less or hit more units to counter the less damage done.
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Re: Dispel Realm Magic

Post by BB - Bronzebeard » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:25 pm

While the effect is instantaneous, the casting is not. Realm spells supposedly take preparation and significant time to cast.
I would think a blooded mage or priest present in the target province could feel that a realm spell was being cast. If they won initiative they should be able to abort to casting Dispel Realm Magic to counter a Realm spell being cast. Perhaps a NWP: Spellcraft check to determine what realm spell.

It would be a low likelihood of success, since the defender needs to win initiative and then make the percent check, but it gives a chance.
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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Dispel Realm Magic

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:39 pm

If that works at all, it only makes sense if the dispelling wizard not only won initiative, but also was present in the province, and committed to staying there for the entire action round. This would require anyone interested in dispelling as a reaction to declare which province they're in the start of the action, and stay there for the rest of the action whether any spells are cast there or not. In which case, why not just cast the other version of the spell and be done with it?
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Re: Dispel Realm Magic

Post by WB - Water's Blessing » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:37 pm

I think it's simple and clean if type 2/protection from realm magic is the only way to cancel instantaneous spells, and type 1/dispel realm magic is the only way to cancel ongoing spells. If you cast type 2 in a warded province it wouldn't cancel an existing ward but could stop a new one from being cast. If you cast type 1 it can disrupt an existing ward but couldn't stop a new one from being cast.

No need to make it complicated. Make it simple, make it clean so they don't overlap, and make it so both matter.
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DM Juan
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Re: Dispel Realm Magic

Post by DM Juan » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:21 am

Priests basically have a version of type 2 Dispel, "Protection from Realm Magic."

I think I agree, Dispel Type 1 can dispel ongoing effects: Ward, Defection, Subversion, etc... but cannot be used as a method of stopping them after they have been cast.

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