Levying

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DM Juan
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Levying

Post by DM Juan » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:09 pm

1) Should levying permanently reduce the holding levels?
2) Should you be able to chose which holding is reduced by levying, or make it random?

The reason was intended to be so you could not simply levy-fight, with no cost. I think there should be consequences to levying. I am not sure if being able to target-levy is a good rule application.

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MS - Makaria Smith
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Re: Levying

Post by MS - Makaria Smith » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:22 pm

1) The initial wars in the game used permanent holding reduction, so it would only be right to keep that going forward.

2) The holdings reduced could be targeted (provided they are not hidden), there aren't equal opportunity laws, etc, in play at this time -- nor in most realms. It is a nice way for a province owner to have some sway/say in interloping holding holders. Gives them the ability to directly influence their realm without having to resort to occupy/burn efforts. This in turn encourages people to have holdings where they are liked/tolerated, or to have hidden holdings. Having a holding in a realm where every other holding wants you out should be an expensive effort to maintain on the part of the interloper.
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DM Juan
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Re: Levying

Post by DM Juan » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:48 pm

Well, the actual method you should use is contesting, not burning out holdings. I actually think occupation needs to reduce loyalty more than it does, as well.

A middle option is to have levying reduce loyalty more, as well.

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YK - Yuri Khavlor
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Re: Levying

Post by YK - Yuri Khavlor » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:59 pm

If Levying costs GB, there should be no other costs. The GB cost to muster will be more than the lost revenue from lowering holding or province levels. If the units are disbanded or routed in defense of their home there should be no permanent effect.

If holding loss become permanent, it is one of the most effective ways to 'contest' holdings. It does not make sense to target holdings, the people that are going to respond to a rulers call to arms are going to be their bannerman, not a rivals.

I Like the idea of a Loyalty loss for getting the levies routed, or losing the battle.
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DM Juan
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Re: Levying

Post by DM Juan » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:09 pm

Levying a province costs no GB.

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MS - Makaria Smith
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Re: Levying

Post by MS - Makaria Smith » Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:36 pm

I don't see levies as necessarily their bannermen, they tend to be forced conscripts (hence free cost and poor quality - additionally why I think holdings could be targeted).

Permanent loss of holding is a significant cost already though. Even a realm wishing to just someone by this method will be taking a penalty by having other holdings (not necessarily those they wished to lose) being reduced as well.

For example, let's say you have a law holding you don't like in a province 3 (all holdings maxed initially).

Levying the province reduces the targeted law holding -- as well as the allied guild and temple (who now have to spend time rebuilding as well -- receiving lower GB and RP revenues as well as higher costs to bless land etc).

Is it more effective than a contest? Not really. Two actions must now be spent by allies rebuilding (and actions by a new law regent to expand into the gap made). Is it potentially cheaper? Maybe in GBs/RPs, but even then it is debatable when you factor in the cost of the allies actions to recover as well.

Levying the province can only be done once a turn as well, whereas contest can be done multiple times (and actually gives you the holding and can destroy their holding once it is reduced to level 0).
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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Levying

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:44 pm

I think it's fair if, so long as the levies disband/are destroyed at home by the end of the turn they were raised, the holding levels won't be lost. If the levies are lost in another province, not only are the holding levels lost permanently, so is the province level. This 'they must be at home' restriction makes 'levy-fighting' an extremely bad idea if more than one province is involved in the defense, or if there's any chance of the levies being destroyed in an offensive battle (and there probably is).

I think it's weird that mustering levies for 1 GB is even an option... I especially think they shouldn't provide two boarding counters, since then the most efficient 'marines' are the least trained, and most poorly equipped.

There's already a loyalty loss for having levies fight in another realm (regardless of whether they survive or are lost).

Occupation already automatically reduces loyalty to poor (for the occupiers), regardless of what it was previously. That's as severe as it can get without occupation effectively just being 'pillaging the long way around'. Putting down a rebellion also sets the province's loyalty back to poor to the ruler, even without occupation.

Rebellions are an exception to the rule that the province level loss from levying the province is not permanent, so the holding level loss would be permanent there, too.

The province owner should get to choose which holding levels are lost when they levy, unless the province is rebellious. If it's rebellious, it should be up to the DM, based on what motivated the rebellion. The rebels are presumably trying to get back at someone.

The permanent holding level loss is nice, because it means stable regions have an advantage over those which get invaded (or drafted into foreign wars.) It also gives the defender a choice between a few extra leviegs s in the battle, or a few extra GB at the end of the turn. More choices means more strategy, so that's usually good.

Levying a province every turn until it's virtually empty to lower holdings to 0 would be ridiculously inefficient and self-destructive... just use martial law, at that rate.
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JB - Jana Boulderbrew
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Re: Levying

Post by JB - Jana Boulderbrew » Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:45 am

I had always believed that if the levies died in combat the province level loss was permanent. If you go rounding up a bunch of farmers and get them killed the population is gone.
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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Levying

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:50 am

If the province level was lost even if the levies died in their home province, that'd mean every province that gets conquered would lose at least one level (unless the owner expects it to be easy to take back). Raising levies is a free action, so province owners could even do it after losing a battle, just to spite the would-be occupiers. We don't want that.
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JB - Jana Boulderbrew
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Re: Levying

Post by JB - Jana Boulderbrew » Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:43 am

You can make it cost two levels of loyalty with a minimum loyalty of medium to levy the peasants. I would have holdings only impacted if they died.
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