Levying

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MS - Makaria Smith
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Re: Levying

Post by MS - Makaria Smith » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:26 pm

It rarely led to instant rebellion was my primary point.
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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Levying

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:31 pm

In game terms, it leads to instant poor loyalty in the occupied province, so instant rebellion is the result if anything at all happens to decrease province loyalty after the occupation but before the end of the turn. And if the province owner tries to collect taxes while using martial law, there will be a rebellion unless they do something to increase the province's loyalty.
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MS - Makaria Smith
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Re: Levying

Post by MS - Makaria Smith » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:36 pm

Having law support (50% or 100%) does help to alleviate those issues.
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Re: Levying

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:48 pm

Occupiers can use their military units as virtual law holdings so long as the occupation continues, so having local law becomes mostly redundant (and unusable, if it's been occupied because it's hostile to the occupiers) so long as the occupation continues.

Because the loyalty loss from occupation can't be negated by law control, it has to be negated by no taxes, leadership rolls, or actions. If the tax rate is light or moderate, and nothing is done to counter the loss just from the occupation continuing, there'll be a rebellion. There's not much use in making it severe during occupation, that's what pillaging is for.
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MS - Makaria Smith
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Re: Levying

Post by MS - Makaria Smith » Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:31 pm

Going back to the original question, there are plenty of options to the one having their holding reduced.

Agitate.
Contest.
Withhold spells.
Rule Holding back up.
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Re: Levying

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:35 pm

Contesting has the advantage of converting holdings, if a holding of the same type is used. Which is a long way from hurting your own province and spending a lot of money to weaken other holdings.
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JB - Jana Boulderbrew
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Re: Levying

Post by JB - Jana Boulderbrew » Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:16 pm

Adding a minimum province loyalty to levy would add another tactic to the game. Namely to agitate downward before making an attack. First you sow rebelion, then you invade. The peasants refuse the call to arms because of low loyalty.

Provinces with a very high defensive bonus do not have much of an incentive to maintain a standing army.
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Re: Levying

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:37 pm

I don't agree with it... If the loyalty is poor, that means you can only use the levies defensively. It makes no sense that people would refuse to defend their homes due to poor loyalty. Usually it's the other way around, they become less loyal if their leader passively tolerates invasions.

Poor loyalty has other effects, though. It doubles the cost of actions in that province. This includes mustering, so poor loyalty does make it harder to call up soldiers. Just, not the militia, since their main job is last ditch defense.

I don't buy that line about the 'little incentive to have a standing army'. Levies have terrible stats, and anyone invading a fortified province is going to bring more units than the highest level province in the game can raise as levies.
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SG - Sigrun Godefroy
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Re: Levying

Post by SG - Sigrun Godefroy » Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:30 pm

I think... the cost of using levies is mostly an act of desperation, as in medival times quite often when levies were summoned it was an act of desperation, either in defence or scrapping the button of the barrel in a war of atrrition.

however several pinnicle wars were won by levies, most speciffically when they were fighting for their homes.

I would say you could given them a buff based off the province loyalty, so a highly loyal provinces levies will fight better for you than a disloyal province. or the penalties are different.

I am also unsure of the inner workings of the loyalty, however if a province is loyal to it's owner that should make it easier for the owner to get rid of undesireable holdings, for example they could sieze temple or guild holdings and trigger an event to deal with but i think that should be it.

as far as i can tell with my limited undestrstanding loyalty pretty much just prevents rebellion and little more, so would be nice to reward high loyalty provinces as well
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Re: Levying

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:43 pm

I think that description summarizes how levies (as in, units that are levied, not the 'levy' unit type which is generally a misnomer) work in this game.

In the original rules, high loyalty gave the ruler +1 to actions in the province. As it is, high loyalty is just a buffer against losing loyalty. Most provinces have high loyalty most of the time, so any bonus from having high loyalty would have to take into account the bonus would almost always be available.

Average loyalty has no effects, poor doubles action costs until the problem is fixed (and makes raising settlers and rule province actions impossible), and rebellious causes the province to permanently lose a level (unless, possibly, there's a diplomatic solution).
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