Class Balancing

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YK - Yuri Khavlor
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Class Balancing

Post by YK - Yuri Khavlor » Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:02 pm

[+] Warrior
Best WP (Best choice for training armies): If your character concept is not training there is not much reason to recommend playing a fighter.

Consider giving Fighters the ability to buy WP with bonus NWP from int. (or ½ bonus profs)

Consider moving Leadership from General to Warrior NWP (A Reason for fighter to rule realms)
Consider granting +2 to War/Naval War Adventures from Warrior NWP at level 6

What is the value of strategy NWP in battles, anything beyond the +1 to war adventure? Is there any way to make Fighters the best class for battle matchups?


The published setting strongly favours Fighters as the realm rulers, without a mechanical reason for it. Having a fighter for a Law holder is even less incentivised then rogues for guilds before chained resources, as you only really need half law.

Consider Allowing Warriors to do Heavy Tax with full law without loyalty loss like in the published rules. Some games remove law claims in favour of law holding income, of which I can argue for either way.

Fighter had the most followers for establishing a stronghold, and as there is a Charisma limit on Lieutenants: consider a +1 Lieutentants for fighters.

[+] Rogue
[+] DM thoughts so far
DM Juan wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:45 pm
You don't have more income with a guilder. Honestly, they have no actual functional role. You have less income, because needing a second court, and the way domain upkeep works... you are strictly better off not having them. You are even better off offering the Wizard to control all trade, because then he self-funds, and Mr Guilder doesn't need to take his 20% for personal use...

The only theoretical cost to the team is:
1) RP generation
2) Less people on your team, which means less action, but I'd trade a dedicated guilder for 2 wizards, because wizard actions are better than thief actions.
DM Juan wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:59 pm
But, from a practical perspective, I think having resources encourages guilders to be important, and not be trampled all over. From a game-play perspective, this makes it reasonably compelling to play a guilder, and not just play a Wizard or Priest who happens to control guilds/trade too...
I think a little more work is needed to reach the goal of 'compelling role' for guild holders.

Train Chains could maybe follow the fighter specialization philosophy. Single class rogues can have the benefit, and multiclass characters (& Trade priests/rangers) could have a lesser version (expertise)
Trade specialist could receive +1 GB per link. (In birmail create a Trade Chain domain that gives tribute each season, for every trade route link created)

Being the only class that controlled ship yards was super compelling, but an undesirable change to return to class only buildings, and may not encourage Rogue only selection.

Consider a Domain Point purchase option that would allow Rogue Domains an extra Building selection.

Guilder: second best WP & Best NWP from 3rd level. (I think Guilder NWP should be cut to 3+1 per 2 levels)
Rogues are Effectively +1 ECL vs other classes on Random events from having separate experience charts. Rogues should be +1 additional level when academy trained?

Thief lost the free espionage (The main reason for playing thief over guilder). Free actions are best left out of the game, but perhaps give Thiefs an additional +1 from Rogue proficiencies on random adventures and espionage actions at 7th or 8th level)


I think that making a Guild Domains require a little more effort to maintain, will see their value as an add on to another domain become diminished. Consider adding Trade as a category that can be targeted by random events (currently: All, Prov, Law, Guild, temple, source). This also partly addresses the concern that Trade routes are 1 action investments.

Also a non-adventure event:
Matter of Trade: Regent Action +2 OR LT Action +1 / +1 per GB / +2 Appraising nwp Check (once)
Terrible (2-4) Bad (5-8) Average (9-11) Good (12+)
Trade Route Contested, lose 2d4+1 GB Lose 2d4+1 GB Loyalty Drop Gain Resource or Special Resource
NB: Matter of Trade can be resolved by a choice as well; Pay off Suppliers: Lose 2d4+1 GB or Let the market pay: Lose 1 Bloodline, Loyalty Drop

Resources granted need not be region specific, and quanity can be turn related if a single unit of the resource is insignificant.
[+] Wizard

How has it worked out with the new rule: Wizards grant +1 EPL per 2 Levels (rounded UP) on War Adventures.

This buff has made me reconsider this as a playable domain. Though grovelling for funds remains a obstacle.

I would like to see wizards Alchemy spell become more viable. Remove the action tax of having to cast it as a spell, and make it more efficient 3rp to 1 GB (or even better).

Just make it a free action for the turn capped by X + Y/Caster level if it might be abused.
Consider that right now the wizard, could do a random adventure with that action and earn GB and RP. (And potentially resolves a random event)
[+] Priest

I think most of what a Priest needs for balance comes from balancing the faith granted abilities, and the priest realm spells. Many spells are worth the action. I think its a good move to remove improved bless.

I would love to see a mechanical benefit for different priest faiths based of spheres granted, especially where there are gaps or week realm spells.
[+] repeated from elsewhere
As the Base rules were not balanced, and battle spells are basically incorporated into war adventures. It would be fun to see the benefits assigned to schools/spheres available.

Major Spheres might only gain a benefit(or better benefit) at the appropriate character level.

Healing - Recover 1 unit /3 levels units otherwise killed during a war adventure. (Minor maybe restore hits for units fighting multiple battles a turn)
Charm (+1 to social adventure checks, free Diplomacy NWP)
Animal (Holding requirement for mounted units reduced for province with temples)
War +1 to Land War Adventures

Not every school or sphere, needs to be balanced against each other, but if they were no empty selections for a faith it would make up for losing battle magic for priests.

I feel that fleshing out religious dogma could help. Perhaps a short list like the paladin vows, things the priest is expected to promote and things it will not abide. Even better if it can inform the Temple Domains custom Major Goal.

As is religion was not a factor for any priest that I interacted with. It felt like Priests were just a realm without any special moral authority or guidance in the campaign.
YK - Yuri Khavlor
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CIC - Duke Cicero
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Re: Class Balancing

Post by CIC - Duke Cicero » Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:19 pm

Re: priests and moral stances. The temple I've mostly interacted with has certainly had strong stances.
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CSF - Flint
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Re: Class Balancing

Post by CSF - Flint » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:23 pm

Love these posts from you BSB, I think its important to have these sorts of conversations before the next game for sure. I wish more people would provide their input!

I dont agree with your final statement either, however. Maybe it is a product of East campaign vs West campaign but Faith and Dogma was very central to most if not all of my RP. Major objectives making major news, and I myself might have put up the (second) most news posts? The majority of which were faith defining to help others RP with me on that axis.

Warrior niche being training seems accurate to me. Not sure they need love as more units is a -big- deal.

Rogues and resource chains was a huge deal for the East as well, being the driving force behind the Halmond conflict, and then resettlement of Duergar for stone. There was even a province I could not build buildings in due to landlocked 1 trade route. Having a rogue guilder seemed basically mandatory from where I was managing. There is something to be said about it all being initial investment cost and no action maintenance afterwards though agreed there.

Priest I have the most experience with obviously and I think it needs the most work, but that could easily change when the faith bonuses change. I seem to recall Juan stating that he thinks priest is the most powerful of the classes so I wouldnt expect any bonuses or compensation for "losing battle spells."

Wizard bonus let me run DC 6 war adventures very quickly but without "looking under the hood" of our battle resolution system I am not sure how much of an impact that was. Defection and wards are war-deciding spells we have seen in use this game though - hard to think of ways to improve their gameplay when they have such high impact already. Might have to tone down those big swingy spells if you want to give them more day-to-day influence?
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JB - Jontinius Bruin
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Re: Class Balancing

Post by JB - Jontinius Bruin » Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:21 pm

Rogues and Priests I think are doing their jobs. In fact they do their jobs so well that they often have so many requests for their actions by others rulers. A good balancing thing from their otherwise obvious advantages. (Improved bless and guild bless being other issues mentioned elsewhere that do probably need to be removed)

Wizards are swingy. Either dominant when war is happening or ignored except for the Gold Rush here or there. But again I don't think this is a problem. Alchemy being useless should be addressed. I like the swingyness of wizards and makes them different.

Warriors I think the NWP suggestion above would break the game. Them having the highest # of WP gives them a practical use with the training system we use.

I vote for no major changes as I think we already have a good balance.

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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Class Balancing

Post by TH - The Hunt » Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:58 pm

Warriors

Only trainers have armies, it's not possible to train an army and then give it away. Flagging units to someone else doesn't provide the perks of leading those units. For example, someone who has units flagged to them still can't use them to remove level 0 holdings from their own provinces--the units don't count as theirs for that purpose. This could be taken further if flagged units also continued to have the same permissions as their true owner, so that, for example, a realm that receives units from a faraway land can't move them through an ally's territory without declaring war on that ally. Or more to the point, a 'team' of players that has a 'trainer' and a 'commander' would be forced to give the trainer the same diplomatic status as the commander, shifting the balance of power back toward the true owner of the troops and away from their nominal war-leader. Mm, feudalism!

I'd like more ways for fighters to use their NWPs in warfare. Other classes can still have those NWPs, so it's not a hard restriction, it's just a nice guideway.

I think fighters should have +1 starting unit (or more!), not +1 lieutenants. Lieutenants are too useful for adventuring. A higher-tier starting unit works too.

Rogues

I think giving thief characters a free espionage action would still be a good idea. That, on its own, is enough to balance thief with guilder. Espionage actions are fairly limited, and can do more harm than good to the player performing them, unless they're just used for intelligence gathering. And we desperately need more intelligence gathering to keep things lubricated.

Uses for free espionage actions not already clearly defined by the rules shouldn't be allowed, otherwise players would have an incentive to come up with a new one when in doubt, instead of reverting to type as should be the result of a class-specific bonus.

I don't think trade routes should be counted separately from guilds, but I think guild (or 'all') events should sometimes have suspension or disruption of trade be one of the likely consequences of failing to resolve them appropriately.

Intrigue events and trade matter events could be blended together, if that's easier than having two categories.

Wizards

Alchemy was very useful for me in Taelshore. I think the only reason it seems 'unbalanced' to us in the last two games is because in these two games we had to create all our own holdings and the games didn't go on long enough for us to create the the many high-level source holdings a wizard regent would rule in a normal, stable Birthright game setting. If the next game is not like that, or it can be addressed, Alchemy should be a good way to 'poof' dozens of RP into as many GB as the wizard wants, whenever they need it. And those in more dire straits can do the same thing with Coffer Credit, and pay it back later... but, using that is a terrible pain when we have to spend an action to research every spell we cast.

Priests

The issue with Improved Bless is that anyone without it is giving up on being a major faith in the long term. If we have it, it should be restricted to a 'supreme' deity and/or god of agriculture, so that the religion with it is either dominant or supplemental and there's no direct competition. It's hard enough to build a temple (or to play any spellcasting character) that doesn't make the local regents rich as it is.
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JB - Jana Boulderbrew
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Re: Class Balancing

Post by JB - Jana Boulderbrew » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:16 am

I would like to see some ability for Priests to research new spells. I copied over the rules I found in the Book of Priestcraft. My reasoning for this is TSR pulled support for Birthright before all the expansions were out. For Example Mats Favored Sphere is Travelers, but there are no traveler domain spells...

I do not believe the various religions are balanced... Rhyel has an obvious advantage ... Best Bless, Defection, Summon Ents, Population Growth...

My choice of Mats has been enjoyable from a gameplay standpoint. On adventures Clay is very strong, but tactically on the domain turns he is not. My choice of Deity was on options for Roleplaying.... I didn't want to deal with Roleplaying a sex fiend..

_______________________

Regarding the fighter using NWP slots for WP, I have a LT with that. I pointed out to Juan where in the rules a pure fighter is allowed to do it.

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Regarding Rogues, I played a GB generation focus character. Needing a rogues to link resources in a network is the main way I market my connections. I haven't done much with espionage.... To have a good chance to work these actions always seems to cost more RP than I have on hand.
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WM - The Waste Mage
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Re: Class Balancing

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:27 am

I'd like to see a DC based action for dispossessed players to be able to raise units as rebels. The higher you succeed on the DC the more units you rally to yourself. Bonuses if you attempt in a land you ruled once or had a holding in. Bonuses if the current ruler is a different alignment than the population. Make it based on level or a level minimum to avoid a constant progression of one player's characters doing this. If you can assassinate them then the rebellion dies down.

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Re: Class Balancing

Post by TPK - The Pirates » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:38 am

Having played four regents this game, religion was a key driver for all (although in different ways for each). Additionally, religion has been a major factor in most of the interactions each of those regents had with various realms. It also likely played into the 'Polygamy War' as well in a number of ways.

Rogues and guilders are well-balanced against most (particularly once the bless guild buff is gone).

Wizards...I never had enough wizards working with me. Always wanted more. Key power able to be applied in a number of overt and covert ways.

Fighters have seemed fairly well-balanced in last few games. Law holdings should not be discounted, particularly their ability to influence contest, create, or rule actions.

Overall, biggest gripe for classes was in the realm of specific priest-type breakdowns (which is being addressed for next game).

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YK - Yuri Khavlor
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Re: Class Balancing

Post by YK - Yuri Khavlor » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:18 am

How is a guilder not just straight-up better than a thief? There is nothing a thief can do (except multiclass) a builder cant, and the builder has better NWP, and WP.

Similarly, a Fighter is the inferior warrior class, except for being attainable with lower attributes.

On fighter balance vs rogue: A fighter realm vs a Guild Realm will be outnumbered militarily every time. Guilders have enough TPs to train as needed. A Warrior does not have the resources to use his ability without assistance. That same guild realm will also have money to do other things too. Rogues don't need warriors. Warriors need Rogues to use their strengths.

A fighter vs a Wizard: Can't do much to the wizard and is blind to what is even happening. Wizard can auto-win with spells like ward, defection, summon.
Wizards are now way better at leading armies. A fighter without a wizard ally can be f**ked. A Wizard without a fighter has options.

A fighter vs a Priest: At best hopes for mutual assured destruction, Fighter is beholden to invest any land, or law holdings. The fighter Is poorer than the priest

On law holdings, sure they should not be discounted. But law holdings are built by everyone and benefit everyone. As established with rogues The RP generation is not a major factor.

Balance wise a fighters balance came from non-mechanical game setting and culture. They were the landholders, they were the contenders for the Iron throne.

There is no mechanical reason to make the fighter your landholder at this time.
YK - Yuri Khavlor
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“Nature is not cruel, but pitilessly indifferent. The hardest lesson for one to learn, is to admit that things might be neither good nor evil, but simply callous -- indifferent to all suffering"

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CSF - Flint
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Re: Class Balancing

Post by CSF - Flint » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:06 pm

You want a fighter for the best WP and training throughput, and to get RP from law holdings. As everyone gets GB/RP from province levels it seems like a natural fit to overcome the income shortfall. Sure they dont mechanically benefit more than anyone else, but from a meta standpoint it is superior distribution of resources.

Very hard to examine class balance in a vacuum like that (guild+province vs law+prov etc) since the game's nature forces regent alliances. For example if you are a rogue or a priest already, you are highly incentivized to ally with a warrior type who can double your effective power compared to a rogue or priest counterpart. Putting units on the field is how you project power and no one can do it better. Your income plus their throughput combined is stronger than a rogue+priest duo whose extra gold bars they cannot turn into units.
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