Expanding Summoning

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JB - Jontinius Bruin
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by JB - Jontinius Bruin » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:31 pm

Yeah plus immediate offensive use vs. only immediate defensive use.

Can be dealt with but it is strong.

It isn't really the spell itself though. It is the combined effect of our faster leveling and the spell. We'd be level 4 or 3/3 right now last game but ~7 or 8 and 5/5 or 6/6 now.

I know last game we talk about how the old Summon was fine if it could get mmode of casting above just 1 or (2?) Orge, because it was effective Mid-Game but then tapered off late game.

This change makes it mid game monster, and late game probably worse. Right now we are seeing only phase 1 of its use. It will likely break the game around T10 or so

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CSF - Flint
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by CSF - Flint » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:33 pm

Is it that big of a gap versus an optimized fighter? wow
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LMC - Lord Mayor Cowell
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by LMC - Lord Mayor Cowell » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:36 pm

Might need to increase its cost atleast.
Lord Mayor Cowell VI

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TPK - The Pirates
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by TPK - The Pirates » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:37 pm

BC - King Baron Corbin wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:31 pm
Yeah plus immediate offensive use vs. only immediate defensive use.
It sounds like it is still can't attack action summoned, consistent with troops mustered/trained can't be used offensively in same action.

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JB - Jontinius Bruin
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by JB - Jontinius Bruin » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:39 pm

Yeah and to SaS's point. It makes any fighter who spent DP to train effectively feel useless.

The costs before being a bit higher than training were balanced because it also factored in costs saved by not paying upkeep as SaS pointed out. It could be an emergency, cost effective additional fighting force.

Not right now, but as I said ~T10 it will be the majority of all armies.

As TOK said if not used when summoned then that is something but the benefits are still beyond what any trainer could do. That is a trainer with a Training Grounds and a DP point spent. Vs. A non optomized Trainer it looks ridiculous. Both have no DP/Building tax but one is insane compared to the other.

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YK - Yuri Khavlor
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by YK - Yuri Khavlor » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:41 pm

Maybe not perfectly optimized fighter, could have given him blacksmithing to save a GB on that infantry.
YK - Yuri Khavlor
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“Nature is not cruel, but pitilessly indifferent. The hardest lesson for one to learn, is to admit that things might be neither good nor evil, but simply callous -- indifferent to all suffering"

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JB - Jontinius Bruin
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by JB - Jontinius Bruin » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:49 pm

But Irregulars are going to be the way to go it seems most of the time which there are no GB optomizations there, but yes your are correct Tier 3 seems a tiny bit closer to balanced. But the Ogre vs. E.Infantry gets even worse later in cost problems cause Tier 4 is not +2GB it is +4 and Tier 5 is another +6 (5 with NWP)

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TPK - The Pirates
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by TPK - The Pirates » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:51 pm

If they aren't maintained don't they revert to uncontrolled and randomly start pillaging/warring?

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YK - Yuri Khavlor
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by YK - Yuri Khavlor » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:53 pm

Also note: Gnoll Irregulars have +1 melee.

I am not calling for a nerf to wizards, or a Buff to fighter (more then usual :) )

I just want to make sure I and everyone understands the rules the same way, so the discussions about it make sense.
YK - Yuri Khavlor
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“Nature is not cruel, but pitilessly indifferent. The hardest lesson for one to learn, is to admit that things might be neither good nor evil, but simply callous -- indifferent to all suffering"

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WM - The Waste Mage
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:56 pm

Can't summoned units be dispelled and warded against? Priest Spell Ward Realm. Plus the wizard has to come up with the GB and RP. More summons means a higher level wizard which means more likely a single class which means more likely he has few or no income producing holdings and so can most likely only summon a lot of units only occasionally.

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