Expanding Summoning

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JB - Jontinius Bruin
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by JB - Jontinius Bruin » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:56 pm

No maintenance cost and if you summon them, they are going to get used and 80% plus likely die.

That is like saying that if you tax too much Heavy Tax your province will rebel is drawback. The loyalty loss is a drawback, but the Heavy Tax is a tool and rebellion will be avoided by any person paying attention.

SaS that is a good point, though also -1 Morale.

so

in Winining fights = Win more

but

in losing fights = lose more

Obvisouly

In close fights = wash of advantages and disadvantages

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WM - The Waste Mage
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:00 pm

Wizard spells can be completely blocked or dispelled. It's just a different thing to be prepared for. You have to watch out for an enemy fighter invading you so you prepare your own forces. You should also watch out for a wizard by allying with other wizards and priests and having them ready to dispel or ward.

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WM - The Waste Mage
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:03 pm

And it costs a lot or RP and costs GB as well. And they don't last. Plus large summons will be annihilated come winter. Is a poor wizard going to have the fortifications to shelter a lot of units? Any allies will want to shelter their units who are permanent.

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JB - Jontinius Bruin
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by JB - Jontinius Bruin » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:04 pm

Pyroneous good points but,

A) No Gods have Ward Realm I think.

B) Dispel Realm Magic is very weak against an active player. Risk Casting Wizard will spend more RP to canceling the Dispel (doesn't provide any advantage as the original RP spent to cast it already makes the Dispel's Cost and makes a threshold to target.) I could do it, but I won't cause it is a waste. It will fail ~50% of the time against an evenish power opponent (need large Bloodline differences to be sure to have enough RP to guarantee it doing anything) So better to do things that will 100% do something.

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JB - Jontinius Bruin
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by JB - Jontinius Bruin » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:04 pm

That next point is useless. Summon and use immediately. Has no effective drawback to it.

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LMC - Lord Mayor Cowell
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by LMC - Lord Mayor Cowell » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:07 pm

Py - Pyroneous wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:56 pm
Can't summoned units be dispelled and warded against? Priest Spell Ward Realm. Plus the wizard has to come up with the GB and RP. More summons means a higher level wizard which means more likely a single class which means more likely he has few or no income producing holdings and so can most likely only summon a lot of units only occasionally.
In most cases, that would be a guilder gives the wizard the gold rather then giving it to a fighter;)

I think it needs to be either shorter duration or abit increased cost. But it being powerful is fine.
Lord Mayor Cowell VI

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AaH - Avicerra al Hamam
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by AaH - Avicerra al Hamam » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:12 pm

I think its fine for now. You need to use actions each year to have a standing army of units if you summon. Trained units are permanent.

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WM - The Waste Mage
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:16 pm

It doesn't need to change. The problem is people don't take an enemy wizard into account when planning. It's the same as if you were a smaller realm mad at a larger realm. What would you do? Take the fact that it is a larger realm into account and plan accordingly. Find allies.... do better at diplomacy.... don't start shit... You wouldn't argue that larger realms need nerfing.... though actually if there were no wizards you probably would. You need to have situational awareness. It's not the rule's fault if you didn't take a wizard into account and find an ally wizard or make sure you had counters to the enemy wizard. Step up your game. If you attacked and didn't plan for a larger realm having more units than you then it is your fault. Same with attacking and not taking a wizard into account.

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JB - Jontinius Bruin
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by JB - Jontinius Bruin » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:17 pm

Duration isn't a probelm unless made so short it is unuseable and that would make the spell well unuseable again.

Increased cost yeah could do it, or increased "Summoning Points"

Like

Old

Summoning
(Conjuration/Summoning)
Duration: 1 Turn + 1 Action/level
You gain 2 summoning points per caster-level; each Gnoll Irregular = 3 points, each Orog Infantry = 5 points, each Stonecrown Ogre = 8 points
Cost:
1RP per 2 summon points, plus 1RP per 2 units (2 Stonecrown = 16pts, and 2 units == 9RP; 6 Irregulars = 18pts, and 6 units == 14RP)
1GB per 4 summon points, plus 1GB per 2 units (2 Stonecrown = 16pts, and 2 units == 5GB; 6 Irregulars = 18pts, and 6 units == 8GB)

New

Summoning
(Conjuration/Summoning)
Duration: 1 Turn + 1 Action/level
You gain 2 summoning points per caster-level; each Gnoll Irregular = 4 points, each Orog Infantry = 7 points, each Stonecrown Ogre = 11 points
Cost:

1RP per 2 summon points, plus 1RP per 2 units (2 Stonecrown = 16pts, and 2 units == 9RP; 6 Irregulars = 18pts, and 6 units == 14RP)
1GB per 4 summon points, plus 1GB per 2 units (2 Stonecrown = 16pts, and 2 units == 5GB; 6 Irregulars = 18pts, and 6 units == 8GB)

_________________________________________________________________________

To MM's point, standing units have a increasing cost because they are permanent. With this why have a permanent army at all? Why even be a non wizard at all? Everyone is Wizard or XXXX/Wizard. 1 Level 3 source, train everything you need when you need it on demand, use and forget. Ridicuoul efficieny beyond what anything else can do.




Also realizing something... 8 irregulars is 24 points.. how the fuck is someone level 12?

Probably mixed real irregulars and summoned ones. neat.

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JB - Jontinius Bruin
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Re: Expanding Summoning

Post by JB - Jontinius Bruin » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:18 pm

Did take that into account.

This is a health of the game issue. With rules as is, next game will be a 28 wizard game and anyone who isn't a wizard will be meaningless.

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