Kn Rule Feedback

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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Kn Rule Feedback

Post by TH - The Hunt » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:52 pm

I don't think this should be a concern. If a priest joins a faith without the permission of the god, and proceeds to go against the god in any way, there's this section from Complete Priest: Priests and Punishment:

"Betrayal of Goals

"If the priest deliberately violates the goals of the god, then he's in real trouble. For instance, if a priest of the god of war advocates peace when war is in the offing, or if a priest of the god of love tells young lovers to wise up and forget about romance, then the god will definitely be offended.

"The first time this happens, the god will give the priest an unmistakable warning. This could be a heart attack, costing 50% of the priest's current hit points. It could be a portentous destruction of a statue of the god while the priest is present. It could be an earthquake or other warning. The warning doesn't have to be immediately after the betrayal, but will be soon after.

"The second time this happens, the god will appear to the priest. It doesn't have to be in person, right then; it might be in a dream, the night following the betrayal. The god will sternly ask the character his motives and order him to return to proper worship.

"The third time this happens, the god will immediately reduce the character to 1 hit point and change his character class. The priest will become an ordinary fighter at an experience level two lower than the priest's level (minimum first level); his normal hit point total and possessions will be unaffected. Until the character undergoes a severe ritual of atonement, the god will despise the character and plague him with little ills, diseases, and enemies. Once the character atones for the deed, the god forgives him . . . but the character will still be a fighter.

"Sometimes, a god might deliberately confront the character with a test of the character's faith. For example: Part of the god's worship demands that anyone who tramples his sacred flowers be blinded. Then, the god befuddles the priest's wife or daughter, and that character stumbles across the sacred flowers where only the priest can see it. If he conceals the sin, he's punished. If, regretfully, he prepares to carry out the punishment, the god will be pleased. The god might interrupt the punishment, or wait until it has been carried out and then restore sight to the priest's loved one."

In other words, sure you can game the system, but this will go just as well as cheating inside a casino. You're going to end up in the back alley with your legs broken.
Last edited by TH - The Hunt on Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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YK - Yuri Khavlor
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Re: Kn Rule Feedback

Post by YK - Yuri Khavlor » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:53 pm

Maybe track the shrine swaps, with the impact being potential divine decree of enmity between the gods, despite their faithfuls cooperation.

Might even be a minor/major failure and blood loss from mercenary swapping. If the swap is done for game optimization purposes and not political ones, seems like a clear cut 'alignment' violation
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CSF - Flint
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Re: Kn Rule Feedback

Post by CSF - Flint » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:56 pm

Good 'we will know it when we see it' arguments both, but is Juan looking to quantify what that abuse would be, or be content with that arbitrary judgment?
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DM Juan
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Re: Kn Rule Feedback

Post by DM Juan » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:58 pm

I was thinking along the lines of:

"The Gods hold your Sway"
You must wait Tier-turns of your current faith, before you can re-dedicate your Shrines/Temples to a new faith. During this time, you provide no support to any God.
If both parties (the current God, and the leaving Shrine/Temple-holder) do an Investiture Action, they may sever the connection immediately.

"You may join any Faith/A God can Banish you from a Faith"
Once a faith reaches Tier 2, anyone can opt to join it. They have no sway over the development of the faith, unless given such. The above mentioned cooldown before you can change faiths will apply. The God will know you have joined their faith, and if they feel you are violating their ethos, can sanction you, including striping you of spells, and ejecting you from the faith. It is completely at their discretion. The above noted cooldown will still apply, if the God ejects you from their faith.

"Faiths will become Known"
At Tier 2, the basic details of your faith will start to be widely known. At each tier, all Realm spells below the newest will be widely known. More details (Spheres/Powers) will also gradually become widely known.

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DM Juan
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Re: Kn Rule Feedback

Post by DM Juan » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:00 pm

To be clear: "The God" is the party who is the Divine (Bloodline) focus of the faith.

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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Kn Rule Feedback

Post by TH - The Hunt » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:05 pm

I just think it's important to impress the degree of power the god has over their priests is such that a betrayal is almost impossible to survive without the consent of the god being abandoned. And even then, they could opt to punish the priest 'lightly' by changing their character class, so they still can't join a new religion as a priest. I don't like the idea of devotion being taken lightly.
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Re: Kn Rule Feedback

Post by TH - The Hunt » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:10 pm

(Betraying a god and renouncing one's faith in one aren't the same thing, though. The cooldown works as a period between renouncing one's faith and adopting a new one.)
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YK - Yuri Khavlor
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Re: Kn Rule Feedback

Post by YK - Yuri Khavlor » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:11 pm

Changeling Faith's should be seen as a failure. Either the faith or shrineholder. I think it should be obvious based on the events and communication that brings it about if a faith failed to meet the needs of their supporters. Or, if a supporter failed to act within their beliefs, and switched for meta optimization only.
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“Nature is not cruel, but pitilessly indifferent. The hardest lesson for one to learn, is to admit that things might be neither good nor evil, but simply callous -- indifferent to all suffering"

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WM - The Waste Mage
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Re: Kn Rule Feedback

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:15 pm

Make em have to "build" their shrine into a new faith. The Old Faith is alerted to the fact and can Excommunicate them with effects lasting until the regent has completely rebuilt his current shrine. Or some bastardization of that.

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DM Juan
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Re: Kn Rule Feedback

Post by DM Juan » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:17 pm

I agree. Changing Faiths should be seen as a failure, of one, or both, parties. I do not envision many people changing faiths via the investiture mechanism, but I suppose it is possible.

Having to rebuild their Shrines is a more extreme example of the cooldown option, I guess.


Example of what is known at Tier 2:
Prince Hircine (Lesser God)
Lord of the Hunt, the God of Strength, the Master of Beasts
Requirements: Str 11, Wis 9
Alignment: Any non-Lawful
Known Realm Spells: Bless Land

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