Undefined how to bid - Subversion

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DM Juan
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Undefined how to bid - Subversion

Post by DM Juan » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:53 pm

1) You both say what you bid simultaneously (effectively, you each bid in secret and both bids are fully spent. Whoever went higher, wins. Caster says I will bid 10. Defender says I will bid 15RP. Spell fails, defender bid whatever for base spell + 10RP. Defender bid a total of 15RP)
2) You both say what the maximum you bid (effectively, rounds of bidding. The bid amount is whatever the lesser max was, by both parties, +1 for the defender. Eg: I will bid 10RP to force it through. I will bid 15RP to make sure it fails. The end result is caster bids 10 extra, defender bids 11. The spell fails.)
3) The defender sets the target DC by bidding RP. The caster then decides if they want to outbid it, or not (so defender says I bid 15RP to prevent it. Caster decides that is too much, and doesn't bid. Only the defender bid the extra 15RP)

I think there are 3 viable methods of handling how the bidding on subversion works. I don't think it has been defined anywhere, so looking to discuss how we handle it. It is not ideal that this discussion happens in the middle of a war, but... it is sadly undefined.

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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Undefined how to bid - Subversion

Post by TH - The Hunt » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:57 pm

The natural way for it to work, in my view, is that the spell is cast, the defender(s) can say how much they're willing to bid, and then the caster can choose to outbid them or let the spell fail.
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CSF - Flint
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Re: Undefined how to bid - Subversion

Post by CSF - Flint » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:58 pm

I assumed it worked as #2, since thats how all the other bidding in the game has worked to this point.
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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Undefined how to bid - Subversion

Post by TH - The Hunt » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:01 pm

I don't think so... Most bidding is on actions, where you have to commit to a bid amount before you know exactly how much you would need to bid to defeat the action (or ensure its success).
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CSF - Flint
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Re: Undefined how to bid - Subversion

Post by CSF - Flint » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:03 pm

All of the bidding wars I have been in to date have been by method #2.
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DM Juan
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Re: Undefined how to bid - Subversion

Post by DM Juan » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:04 pm

#2 is how espionage works
#3 is a plausible interpretation of the wording, and is one that has interesting effect of taxing the defender, and allowing the caster to use subversion as an RP drain. Though they have to target enough units to make the defender want to stop it.
#1 is probably what requires the most strategizing from both parties.

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RaH - Rassan al Hamam
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Re: Undefined how to bid - Subversion

Post by RaH - Rassan al Hamam » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:05 pm

I would prefer number 2.

Number 1 I don't like cause of the bluff aspect of it.

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JJ - Jon von Jonke
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Re: Undefined how to bid - Subversion

Post by JJ - Jon von Jonke » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:08 pm

If you want to target 5 units you already have to use 15 RP. So the party wanting to counter the subverision is already in a net advantage of 15. I think the spell gets to week if you just need to pay 1 RP to stop it in case the caster has only 15 RP.

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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Undefined how to bid - Subversion

Post by TH - The Hunt » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:10 pm

The defender doesn't know what the Subversion action is doing when they choose to bid, right? They only know what its target is (which implies how much RP the wizard is spending before bids). If the defender bids enough that the caster can't activate whatever they want to subvert, the spell and everything spent on it is immediately wasted, even if that only cost the defender 1 RP. The defender doesn't have to spend an action to waste the caster's action, they only have to spend RP. Causing the wizard to lose even more RP on top of that if they can't win the bidding war seems like overkill.
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WM - The Waste Mage
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Re: Undefined how to bid - Subversion

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:10 pm

The weird part is a caster could spend 18 RP to subvert 6 units and all the victim would have to do is spend 1 RP to negate the spell. And if the Caster had spent all his RP on the Subversion spell then his spell fails. So 18 RP are wasted by one side while the other side only spent 1.

I assumed it was that the victim of the spell could bid against it and whatever he bid would take away from the amount of RP the caster spent on the spell.

Caster spends 18 RP to subvert 6 units.
Victim counters with 12 RP and negates the effect on 4 units.

(And if there is an odd number high it negates 1 more unit since you need a full 3 RP per unit to subvert)

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