Elves Autoscout function overpowered

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RaH - Rassan al Hamam
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by RaH - Rassan al Hamam » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:39 am

I think that the Elven movement is to good in this game and should be changed in the future.
But I also hate rule changes during a round. So if something is changed, no matter what, it should be for next round.

MaH - Meganno al Hamam
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by MaH - Meganno al Hamam » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:54 am

I am not saying, that we can‘t do anything vs. the Invasion. I claim, that the scout ability for a whole army without costing significantly more is to powerfull if you look to other races. In the moment Version it is optimal for an offensive army and even best for a defensive one. If a wizard is surrounded by other wizards it is not o easy to get source deals. The next best strategy is to build a realm by yourself to get any gb income at all in my opinion.

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LK - Lady Katrijn
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by LK - Lady Katrijn » Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:28 am

I do think elite units such as elves and dwarves should be more expensive
Now I don't know the entire map, but I doubt the difference in movement really matter, I don't think any land mass is large enough for it to make a huge difference.
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JB - Jana Boulderbrew
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by JB - Jana Boulderbrew » Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:09 am

IMHO it is the combination of a high movement with the scouting ability that makes it so good. But also, the range they can move is limited by the shrine level, so all in all, it does not seem that easy to pull off. The reason why some didn't take enough precautions to face the threat, maybe? Of course, the fact that there is no overall map leaves people completely in the dark.. which leads me to believe that in this game, the combo is just really-really good. But in next game it will possibly have less impact.

Up to the rest to adapt I guess..
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AaH - Avicerra al Hamam
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by AaH - Avicerra al Hamam » Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:57 am

You can just flag the units to the player with the highest shrine.

Another absurd example is if you attack into a forest if you dont have scouting ability you would need 3-9 warmoves before you arrive. When you arrive the defender decides if he wants to retreat or not. If he retreats you can not ever manage to engage him in a battle. The elves could circle around the province involved at least once if they wanted too or strike at any province they choose and the attacker could not ever get an battle. Dont get me wrong mobile forces should be able to avoid battle if they want but not in the factor we are talking about here. Compared to orogs and karamhuls the elves have an speed advantage that is 24:1. If movement is 2 it gets 12:1 and if movent is 3 it is 8:1. The problem is that an entire army can consist of scout units. Having speed advantage of 10:1 or higher is just plain broken.

Roads and castles are just defensive and in when the opponent is so mobile there is not much you can do except if you have a decisive force advantage.

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WM - The Waste Mage
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:42 am

Could leave them as is but drastically increase their attrition outside of woods. The direct sunlight and any changes in elevation are too much for their frail little constitutions. They can still zoom out and crunch people in a wide area but they have to get back to some woods fast or disease sweeps through them.

And Dwarves should have a move of 1 no matter the terrain. They are slow but steady due to their con and can slog through anything at the same pace.

Halflings should have the ability to move anywhere but with a percentile die roll indicating they: "Get there with all units" to "Attacked by undead and have to leave the Shadow World early. Your army pops back into the real world in X Realm" On up to "Entire army wiped out in the Shadow World."

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LMC - Lord Mayor Cowell
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by LMC - Lord Mayor Cowell » Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:23 am

I sense sarcasm. I don´t think anything should be changed, except maybe somewhat limit scout bonus movement overall. If it was however, I would lower attrition for dwarfs. Cold? Bah. hot and wet? wont matter. Buried in a mudslide? Might end up 5 minutes late then.

It would be to much additional things to keep check on thou.
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AaH - Avicerra al Hamam
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by AaH - Avicerra al Hamam » Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:41 am

Attrition should be the same for all for simplicity but scouting ablilty should be limited somehow. I like the idea that a scout can enter the first province as if there is a road but the next provinces cost normal movement. It already makes the scouts much more powerfull in attacks but they are not running around the map in lightning speed.

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TF - The Fortress
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by TF - The Fortress » Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:52 am

MM - Maro Mithrilhand wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:57 am
You can just flag the units to the player with the highest shrine.

Another absurd example is if you attack into a forest if you dont have scouting ability you would need 3-9 warmoves before you arrive. When you arrive the defender decides if he wants to retreat or not. If he retreats you can not ever manage to engage him in a battle. The elves could circle around the province involved at least once if they wanted too or strike at any province they choose and the attacker could not ever get an battle. Dont get me wrong mobile forces should be able to avoid battle if they want but not in the factor we are talking about here. Compared to orogs and karamhuls the elves have an speed advantage that is 24:1. If movement is 2 it gets 12:1 and if movent is 3 it is 8:1. The problem is that an entire army can consist of scout units. Having speed advantage of 10:1 or higher is just plain broken.

Roads and castles are just defensive and in when the opponent is so mobile there is not much you can do except if you have a decisive force advantage.
All of this is mitgated and/or removed when defensive fortifications are in place. They can't move through a province with a fortification without taking it first.

Again, there seems to be a misconception as to the value and utilization of various troops and races.

Karamuhl have huge bonuses to defense in their home terrain. They are also slower than molasses. Clearly they are intended to be a primarily defensive army which relies on a network of roads and infrastructure to be at their best.

Sidhe are light and fast. Yes they will run circles around Karamuhl trying to outmaneuver or invade their woodlands. That's a feature, not a bug. It is intended to be that way. If you wish to stymie them, fortfications or levy speed blocks. Set traps by using realm spells against them. A swarm of Sidhe rush behind your invasion force, drop a ward on them and lock them in place. Subvert some. Defect some.

In any regards, the movement rate is the single largest concern for the Scout Trait. Adjusting terrain mods is a reasonable mechanism to semi-balance, but then you will end up with Karamuhl scouts who are still almost as slow as molasses and having Sidhe run circles around them.

Long story short, changing it will only make things worse, not better. If someone is playing Karamuhl, dig into the mountains and play defense. Lean into the strength of the Karamuhl and quit trying to lean into the weakness of the Karamuhl. :)


As an aside, while Mishrak is correct that no single person can out do the impact of 6+ other players, it also needs to be noted that Mishrak is not alone. While only one is being used for wars (guessing here), any and all of those conquered/allied so far are providing resources to fuel the war effort. So it is not accurate to portray it as 1 on 6 or whatnot. It is more like 6 on 6 or something (guessing at which realms are involved) at this point.
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DCT - Destiny Corben-Talas
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by DCT - Destiny Corben-Talas » Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:57 am

Well, actually the Folk pay the scout ability with a -1 to melee. I think the scout ability shall be even a little upgraded to allow them to ignore ZOC. Im not suyre how enemy forces can stop a halfling army from travelling around, really. They even teleport themselves, all of them. And Shadow portallin' means even cavalry can enter tehir ponies or whatever into the teleportation.,). And the missle advantage is quite crapy. The sidhe archer have a +1 to hit. The halfling only hvae it for levies and infantry. And having -1 to melee, is not the most popular of disadvantages. And they have no special bonus for hills resources. The final proof, is than in 3 campaigns, lets say 75 characters, only 5 were halfling. Count how many halfelves are leading supossedly hummie realms, or how many sidhe and humans are around. Because they rock , basically. Karamhul rocks, but are by far less fun to play but if u wanna tank , isolate urself and play dirty games at the mountains. Outside a mountain, a karamhul suxx. Outside a Forest, the sidhe still rocks..,). And being halfelf and having humans troops is the pinacle..,)
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