Elves Autoscout function overpowered

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TF - The Fortress
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by TF - The Fortress » Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:40 pm

That's why Explore Y and Create Holding X were listed twice each :)

And you forgot your starting 10 GBs to help offset. And the explores netted GBs and RPs each.
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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by TH - The Hunt » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:05 pm

I'd agree that training troops before making contact is a pretty bad strategy. Fortifications are a better investment, since the maintenance cost doesn't increase above 1, and each level buys an entire turn to prepare and seek aid (unless Siegecraft checks reduce that time).
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by TF - The Fortress » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:06 pm

Having no one to defend you if you come across bad eggs is a no win strategy :)
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by AaH - Avicerra al Hamam » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:14 pm

RC - Riva wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:40 pm
That's why Explore Y and Create Holding X were listed twice each :)

And you forgot your starting 10 GBs to help offset. And the explores netted GBs and RPs each.
You start with 10 GB.
Turn 1 you use 2 GB to settle twice and 1 GB for the fortification.
Income is 2 GB from the adventures and 33% chanse to have 1 GB income from the province.
Then you have 1 GB upkeep

Turn 2 you have ca 9 GB
settle twice and create holding is 3 GB and train irregulars is 4 GB.
Fortification cost 1 GB
Upkeep is 2 GB fortifications and 1 GB for holdings and 2 GB irregulars.
Road 1-2 GB if you suceed engeneering
Income is maybee 1 GB

Already now you are negative -4-5 GB

Turn 3
Costs 4 GB irregulars, 1 GB create holding, 1 GB rule or trade route
Income 1 GB adventure
Road 1-2 GB
Lets say income is 3 GB
Units and holdings upkeep is 7 GB

Total you are around minus 14 GB

If you suceed all adminitration rolls and get some treasure rolls 9+ you might be bellow 10 negative GB.

Can you try again making a viable strategy against a spring invasion?

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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by TH - The Hunt » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:17 pm

MM - Maro Mithrilhand wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:05 am
I have said that elves should be faster than Karamhul or orogs but not in a factor 24:1.
It's not a factor of 24:1 except in the case of elven scouts or knights that never encountered a river versus dwarves moving through forest. It'd be 8:1 if the dwarves were moving through trackless high mountains. The ratio for movement rate for elven infantry versus dwarven scouts offroad, or dwarven units on road, is 2:1. And elven artillerists (those strange beasts) have move 1 and don't get the benefit of scout movement, so the highly mobile elven army doesn't have a useful advantage against built-up lands.

(Elven archers having move 4 on the unit table is a typo I called out three games ago, heh.)
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by AaH - Avicerra al Hamam » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:25 pm

MF - Morcuan the Fay wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:17 pm
MM - Maro Mithrilhand wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:05 am
I have said that elves should be faster than Karamhul or orogs but not in a factor 24:1.
It's not a factor of 24:1 except in the case of elven scouts or knights that never encountered a river versus dwarves moving through forest. It'd be 8:1 if the dwarves were moving through trackless high mountains. The ratio for movement rate for elven infantry versus dwarven scouts offroad, or dwarven units on road, is 2:1. And elven artillerists (those strange beasts) have move 1 and don't get the benefit of scout movement, so the highly mobile elven army doesn't have a useful advantage against built-up lands.

(Elven archers having move 4 on the unit table is a typo I called out three games ago, heh.)
I was not talking about defense in the mountains or in areas where roads are built. I was talking about attacking an elf in his forest. My point beeing it is pointless to try to concquer forest terretories with none scouts which when elves move with the factor of 8:1, 12:1 or 24:1

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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by TH - The Hunt » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:36 pm

It's not 'pointless', it's just disadvantageous. If a dwarf realm wants to conquer an elven forest, they certainly can, but their strategy will have to be to send in a huge army one turn and then just leave it there the next turn. After the second turn, if the army hasn't been dislodged, the dwarves will have begun building a road, which should be done in another turn or two. (They might be able to build a castle, there, too, though I'm not entirely sure if castles can be built by occupiers.)

If the dwarves do send scouts ahead of the army and they aren't repelled before reinforcements arrive, the army can still catch up with them, and occupation (and construction) can begin the same turn.

Once the province is occupied, reinforcements can be sent in without a Declare War action.
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by TF - The Fortress » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:51 pm

RC - Riva wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:18 am
You can build the defenses quickly. And you can stop an irregular flood if you invest wisely from the get go.

Fortification (6 GBs with appropriate NWPs).
Irregular (2 GBs each).

Turn 1 Fall
LT Action: Settle Province X to 0
Action 1: Settle Province X to 1
Action 2: Explore Y
Action 3: Explore Y
Shrine to level 1
Fortification in Province X to 1

Turn 2 Winter
LT Action: Train Troops (2x Irregulars)
Action 1: Settle Province Y to 0
Action 2: Settle Province Y to 1
Action 3: Create Holding Province X
Shrine to level 2
Fortification in Province Y to 1
Road Province X to Y

Turn 3 Spring
LT Action: Train Troops (2x Irregulars)
Action 1: Create Holding in X
Action 2: Explore Z
Action 2: Trade Route (if Guilder) or Realm Rule Holding
Shrine to level 2 or 3
Road Province X to Z
Turn 1 cost 2 GBs and brought in 4 GBs plus 1 GB from province most likely. Net result is 13 GBs on hand. Utilize one set of resources and 1 GB on the Fortification 1.

Admin cost: 0 GBs in Turn 1. Leaves 12 GBs.

Turn 2:
-4 GBs to train from levy muster to irregular.
-3 GBs for settles
-1.5 GBs for road
Another set of resources and 1 GB for second fort.

Total: -8.5 GBs from 12, leaving 3.5 GBs before income.

Admin cost: 2 GBs in Turn 2 (1 fort, 2 provinces, and 1 holding).

Figure 1 GB per province, puts you at 3.5 GBs going into Turn 3.

Turn 3:
Skip the train troops (you have 2x Irregulars still) and do an extra Adventure.

+4 GBs (2x Adventure)
-1 GB Create Holding
-2 GBs Realm Rule Holdings

Admin cost: 5 GBs in Turn 3 (2 fort, 2 provinces, and 2 holding, 2x troops).

Figure 1 GB per province and 1 GB total for both holdings, puts you at 1.5 GBs going into Turn 4.

Utilized two starting resources and realm is solvent and ready for growth in summer (Turn 4).

If invaded (and no magic access), you have 2x Tier 2 units (irregular) and 2x Tier 1 (levies) to call upon.

You could have also gone tall though (province 2 early on and more explores/holdings in neighboring lands) or if had extra settlers gone 2/1 provinces or similar.

Lots of variations and options that still provide a reasonable defense and growth options.
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by HaQ - Hakim al-Qadr » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:55 pm

The point isn't you had to be perfectly optimal to defend. You just needed to do anything at all to defend. Or you can opt to spend 6 actions and have a bunch of Hero-Kings running around fighting instead of an army. That is resource-efficient and action-inefficient.
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Re: Elves Autoscout function overpowered

Post by AaH - Avicerra al Hamam » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:58 pm

How do you get 4 GB from the 2 adventures and a lvl 1 province gives 1d3-2 income so not even close to 1 GB each. lvl 1 holdings also dont give 0,5 income they give 1d3-2.

Having 4 units by summer will leave you broke and you have to do adventures most of the time and maybee one other action.

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