Poll: New Game

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Are you ready to move on to the next chapter and start a new game?

Yes, everything I wanted to work on is complete.
4
22%
Yes, but there were minor things I wished to resolve.
8
44%
Yes, but there were still major things I wished to resolve.
1
6%
We're in a game?
0
No votes
No, but I had most of the things I was working on resolved.
1
6%
No, and there are major issues I am still workingn on resolving.
4
22%
HELL NO! You can't end my plotting yet!
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 18

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TF - The Fortress
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by TF - The Fortress » Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:37 pm

MF, I've attempted to keep everything I have stated in this thread and the other one (future campaign setting) in the realm of civil discourse. Between the two of us, you are the one who continues to use invectives and vitriol towards me.

We disagree on whether the game has reached its conclusion. I believe it has, you believe it has not. You can say it has not all you wish, that isn't going to really change my opinion on the matter, just as I can say it has and it won't change your opinion.

In regards to your statement that we are at best at the mid-point of this current game:

The climax of a story doesn't occur in the middle of the novel, it comes at the end and is typically followed by an epilogue of sorts (see most fantasy and sci-fi movies). The climax for the meta-plot was reached with the destruction of the entities, the aliens, and the ascensions.
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by TF - The Fortress » Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:53 pm

MF - Morcuan the Fay wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:26 pm
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/bl ... u-feel-bad Here's a good read. "Negative social potency". Try to reduce yours, because that's where the problem is.

I am not enjoying this. I'm just defending my own rather humble position that players should get to enjoy the game world, characters, and domains they've invested dozens of hours into developing, instead of being told they can't do anything and need to start over because a few players who have been unbelievably influential despite their extreme social violence want a quick fix, and are worried about losing the pole position if they don't get it, right now.
This is exactly why I created the poll. It provides a much more unbiased view of where players stand on whether or not to move on to the next game.

However, rather than attempt to develop a better poll (since you've indicated you have a multitude of concerns with the current one) or other mechanism to determine where the player-base as a majority is at, you specifically claim extreme social violence and are worried about losing something which none of them care about (and which I'd hazard a guess you have little ability to influence in game regardless).

What exact pole position is BM trying to maintain? That he is the pre-eminent thief of the realm? He has that locked given the number of relics and treasure he stole.

What exact pole position is AA trying to maintain? That they have the greatest learning establishment seen in this game or any other to this point? He has that locked and even if it were burned down (unlikely barring a successful invasion of his realm) it wouldn't take away that he had built it.

What exact pole position am I trying to maintain? That Hircine is the biggest God? I had nothing to do with that really. That Riva has holdings? He has none now after I had him give them away. There's no pole position that I care about.

The single thing all three (AA, BM, RC) are wanting is to simply start the next game so the fun can start all over. We happen to enjoy the new games, the character creation, the realm development, and the new interactions. That's not a bad thing.
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:57 pm

You've complained about my questioning your motives. If your motives were pure, though, you wouldn't be urgently trying to convince everyone 'the game is over'. You'd be just fine with waiting for Juan. The very way you're going about this demonstrates that you don't really believe it, that you're worried it might not be true. If you weren't, what you are doing would not make sense.

However you look at it, this is not a novel, and it's disrespectful to treat it like one. It's not fair to the players when only a minority of them get to experience (or even participate in) any sort of 'climax'. Regardless of that, we're not headed toward a climax unless you're wrong. If you're right, there's no tension to be resolved and nothing interesting happens. If you're wrong, that means events will develop unexpectedly, and there might even be a reversal of fortune.

The climax is not the point of the story where someone gets what they want. Generally speaking, it's the part of the story where they almost fail--or, in stories where there's never any doubt, where the audience finds out how they overcome their challenges. If we treat it like the latter, the climax was ages ago, so why weren't you clamoring for the game to end way back then? Why now?
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:29 pm

RC - Riva wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:53 pm
However, rather than attempt to develop a better poll (since you've indicated you have a multitude of concerns with the current one) or other mechanism to determine where the player-base as a majority is at, you specifically claim extreme social violence and are worried about losing something which none of them care about (and which I'd hazard a guess you have little ability to influence in game regardless).
Where the DM is at is what matters. Players can't make an informed decision about 'whether the game is over', 'whether it should continue', or 'whether it's time to start over', because they don't have inside knowledge, and anyway, they're not the ones who do most of the work. All they can do is report their own perspectives. I can make a bullshit poll like yours, is it going to be helpful? No, but I suppose it can't hurt to prove my point.
What exact pole position is BM trying to maintain? That he is the pre-eminent thief of the realm? He has that locked given the number of relics and treasure he stole.

What exact pole position is AA trying to maintain? That they have the greatest learning establishment seen in this game or any other to this point? He has that locked and even if it were burned down (unlikely barring a successful invasion of his realm) it wouldn't take away that he had built it.

What exact pole position am I trying to maintain? That Hircine is the biggest God? I had nothing to do with that really. That Riva has holdings? He has none now after I had him give them away. There's no pole position that I care about.
Your character has been supporting Hircine, so regardless of whether you decided to do so because you wanted him to succeed or simply saw him as the winning side, you can't deny being partisan now. Either way, it's clear enough you, Rich, and Sam (assuming he really is) are partial to him in no small part because you like how destructive he is and who's previously faced the brunt of it.

You don't seem to understand what a pole position is. It's a position in front at the start of a race, not a position in a race in progress. BM is not trying to maintain any position in this current game, and has been taking insane actions with a high risk of self-destruction and to a considerable extent that very consequence already. Sam has been throwing bombs because he didn't like how things turned out for many turns now, and more recently he's only escalated those efforts. He's also devoted entire games to doing that before, because he didn't like what happened in earlier games. He freely discusses this. Presumably, he wants to maintain the ability to do this, because he wants to get what he wants. Revenge, or lulz, or whatever.

I'm amused that you took take the opportunity to sing squeaky praises for AA for the sake of passive-aggression, and tried to preempt the idea that anything could take away that pseudo-achievement. It's evidence for my hypothesis that you did. But it's not a real question, so there's no real answer.

The three of you want to be vindicated in all the decisions and assertions you've made, because you use that to gain and exert power over other players, and because you are more than content with the setting you are currently projecting and attempting to socially engineer for the next game. You don't want to be proven wrong because you'll lose power you get from people believing in your lies and spin. You don't want things to develop differently than how you've projected--or for the possibility to even be seriously considered!--because you are afraid of what that might mean.

When you earn the pole position, you gain an advantage at the start of the next race. You want the conditions to be favourable to you, your preferred social environment and playstyle in the next game. You want it so badly you cannot let it rest and have posted dozens of times trying to fight to get what you want from everyone else. You go about trying to assure you'll get what you want, regardless of what Juan or the other players might want, by trying to force this game to end right now, the very moment there's a lull in turn processing due to a busy period out of game and a turn that particularly large number of battles and other conflicts to resolve in it in-game.

Shame. Remember how to feel it. Without it, you lose even when you defeat all opposition.
Last edited by TH - The Hunt on Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by CIC - Duke Cicero » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:45 pm

Personally, this OOC bickering bothers me way more than how anyone chooses to enjoy their game, and while we’re all assuming what Juan does and doesn’t like, I can’t imagine he likes slogging through this.

I only have one forum account and I voted “yes, everything I wanted to work on is complete.”
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by TF - The Fortress » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:53 pm

MF, what I am doing makes perfect sense if the goal is to simply use the expanded time gap to develop characters and realms. Yet again you attribute motives which are inaccurate and not representative of my intent. I don't ascribe motive or reason to your opinion, it is your opinion for whatever reason you wish it to be.

The rest of your statements seem to miss the point that the climax has already occurred. Additionally, whether desired or not by you, the climax occurred. That you were not a part of it is between you and Juan -- and likely driven by personal choices you/r character made previously. This has been the way of it in every game going back all the way to Eastern Marches over a decade ago. Not everyone is involved in the climax. Half of the games (or more) I was not involved in the climax (and I was only peripherally involved in this one). It's fine, not everyone needs to be involved and/or take an active part in it.

The Death Star has been blown up, let's head on back to Endor and get the party on for the survivors (and begin to set the stage for the next setting and characters).

One statement you made is absolutely accurate though, 'Where the DM is at is what matters.'
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:03 pm

AB - Alim Büyücü wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:29 am

2) I was a Vampire the Masquerade LARPer for about 10 years.

EDIT: If I ever get around to running a Birthright game again, it will probably be a Birthright/VtM mash-up. :D



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja47-Ctd04c

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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:06 pm

No, it doesn't make sense. You can't use the time gap from Juan being busy to do things that require his oversight. And you shouldn't try, because if he's not particularly attentive during a pre-game set-up phase we'll all end up paying for it a hundredfold later on when almost imperceptible misjudgements end up exploding into keyboard-smashing slap fights. Again.

You saying the climax has occurred doesn't make it true, and in fact nothing can make it true except in hindsight, after the game is over. Like... that's just not how stories work. You don't get to say they're over because you think they're over as a way to attempt to force them to end. That's insane on multiple levels.

What 'death star' are you talking about? The alien ship? Because most of the players in the game didn't even find out that existed until very recently. It's not 'the Death Star' if it's buried in the forest on Endor and was never able to blow anything up.
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by TF - The Fortress » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:13 pm

MF - Morcuan the Fay wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:29 pm
When you earn the pole position, you gain an advantage at the start of the next race. You want the conditions to be favourable to you, your preferred social environment and playstyle in the next game. You want it so badly you cannot let it rest and have posted dozens of times trying to fight to get what you want from everyone else. You go about trying to assure you'll get what you want, regardless of what Juan or the other players might want, by trying to force this game to end right now, the very moment there's a lull in turn processing due to a busy period out of game and a turn that particularly large number of battles and other conflicts to resolve in it in-game.

Shame. Remember how to feel it. Without it, you lose even when you defeat all opposition.
New setting is neutral to all at start of game, AA, BM, and myself gain no advantage for a new campaign.

Conditions are favorable/not favorable equally to everyone in a new setting/game -- AA, BM, and myself gain no advantage here either.

Social environment changes for everyone (new alliances, etc) -- AA, BM, and myself gain no advantage here either.

Your argument about number of posts equating to my inability to let it rest can easily be said for your own multitude of posts. It is an inaccurate statement from start to finish and has no logic to it.

You continually try to bring in Juan and other players, yet you try to ascribe your intent to them. The poll allows for them to exercise their agency (from a player standpoint) as to what they desire/don't desire. At the end of the day, Juan can start or end a game at his decision, that's his choice as the GM.

The large number of battles and other conflicts are in process, yes. The majority of those are in the Shieldlands and while they could turn out in any number of ways, they have little impact on the meta-plot which has been resolved now (for good or bad we will find out in the next game).

As to 'Shame', yet again you seek to villify or demean. I don't think AA or BM help their own cases when they do it either.

This is a game. Constructive discussions and disagreements can be and should be had by all. Resorting to name calling and attempting to villify for disagreements isn't helpful (and yes -- I have used the same poor manners and efforts to villify you in the past -- I should not have sunk to that level and am trying to do better).

End of the day, you believe the game is mid-point at best. I disagree. Players will indicate where they think we are as well. In the end, the numbers will tell a story (and Juan having Admin access, he will be able to tell if same players are voting multiple times via multiple accounts). What Juan chooses to do with that information is Juan's choice. Each player has agency and the ability to decide whatever they want to. Those who are happy to move on to a new one and those who are happy to continue on with the current one. There is no 'right' answer. That's why it is a poll, to assess where feelings and thoughts are at as a whole community.

If Juan chooses to continue the game, it continues. If he decides to start a new one, we start a new one. It is pretty simple. It is not a make or break decision that will shatter the community we have, I believe we as a community are stronger than that. Will some people leave and others join a new game? Possibly. That's what has happened in every other game for the past decade.
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:38 pm

Can we please put her in as the overall ruler next game? I have been saying for a while now that it would be a great way to simulate what it is like living under a ruler slowly going mad and succumbing to paranoia. Give her much more power than the rest of us starting out so her ravings actually have some force behind them.

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