Poll: New Game

Are you ready to move on to the next chapter and start a new game?

Yes, everything I wanted to work on is complete.
4
22%
Yes, but there were minor things I wished to resolve.
8
44%
Yes, but there were still major things I wished to resolve.
1
6%
We're in a game?
0
No votes
No, but I had most of the things I was working on resolved.
1
6%
No, and there are major issues I am still workingn on resolving.
4
22%
HELL NO! You can't end my plotting yet!
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 18

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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:42 am

BM - Braun von Mauler wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:21 am
War game.. as in we strive against each other trying to dominate rather than some LARPy or Vampire the Masquerade weirdness. You can make anything sound weird when you define it thinly like you tried making 'war game' to mean only fighting battles. Just because you cannot win a single war there is no reason to try and change the entire basis of the game from the war game that it is.
I have never LARPed or played Vampire the Masquerade. Should I start complaining about how you keep making the game like Crocanole or Parcheesi or something? (Or maybe you've played those and I haven't, so it wouldn't work.)

A war game is a game focused on fighting wars. This game is so unfocused on that even you, who promote it as being one, went through all of D3 without getting involved in any wars at all, and have spent most of this one roleplaying insane people who care more about chaos and larceny than combat.

...Are you you sure you've never played Vampire? Your PCs would make great Malkavians.

https://vtmb.fandom.com/wiki/Malkavian
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by TF - The Fortress » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:05 am

Support teams can actively assist war-fighters, in the real world as well as in games.

Maneuver, control, and other tactics can win a battle without engaging in actual bloodshed.

Often the source of disagreements results from undefined utilization of terms. For our discussion, I am using the following for war gaming from wiki:

*****

The exact definition of "wargame" varies from one writer to the next and one organization to the next. To prevent confusion, this section will establish the general definition employed by this article.

A wargame simulates an armed conflict, be it a battle, a campaign, or an entire war. Business wargames do not simulate armed conflict and thus fall outside the scope of this article.

A wargame is adversarial. There must be two opposing sides whose players react intelligently to each other's decisions.[7]
[+] Definitely had two opposing sides
A wargame does not involve the use of actual troops and armaments. This definition is used by the US Naval War College.[2] Some writers use the term "live wargames" to refer to games that use actual troops in the field, but this article shall instead refer to these as field exercises.
[+] Definitely no actual troops or armaments
Setting and scenario
A wargame must have a setting that is based on some historical era of warfare so as to establish what armaments the combatants may wield and the environment they fight in.[8]

A historical setting accurately depicts a real historical era of warfare. Among recreational wargamers, the most popular historical era is World War 2. Professional military wargamers prefer the modern era.

A fantasy setting depicts a fictional world in which the combatants wield fictional or anachronistic armaments, but it should be similar enough to some historical era of warfare such that the combatants fight in a familiar and credible way. For instance, Warhammer Age of Sigmar has wizards and dragons, but the combat is mostly based on medieval warfare (spearmen, archers, knights, etc.).
[+] Definitely had a fantasy setting

A wargame's scenario describes the circumstances of the specific conflict being simulated, from the layout of the terrain to the exact composition of the fighting forces to the mission objectives of the players. Historical wargamers often re-enact historical battles. Alternatively, players may construct a fictional scenario. It is easier to design a balanced scenario where either player has a fair chance of winning if it is fictionalized. Board wargames usually have a fixed scenario.
[+] Scenario to build new gods
This was a clear scenario goal as everyone began with the ability to create a shrine and had a relic (as opposed to the first Diaspora where shrines were potentially features of the terrain).

Level of war
A wargame's level of war determines to the scope of the scenario, the basic unit of command, and the degree to which lower level processes are abstracted.

At the tactical level, the scenario is a single battle. The basic unit of command is an individual soldier or small group of soldiers.[9] The time span of the scenario is in the order of minutes. At this level, the specific capabilities of the soldiers and their armaments are described in detail. An example of a tactical-level games is Flames of War, in which players use miniature figurines to represent individual soldiers, and move them around on a scale model of the battlefield.
[+] Definitely not tactical scale
At the operational level, the scenario is a military campaign, and the basic unit of command is a large group of soldiers. At this level, the outcomes of battles are usually determined by a simple computation.
[+] Individual battles were at the operational level
At the strategic level, the scenario is an entire war. The player addresses higher-level concerns such as economics, research, and diplomacy. The time span of the game is in the order of months or years.[10][11]
[+] The campaign as a whole was set at the strategic level

As has clearly been shown, Birthright is a War Game. It has features which allow for role-playing, but the primary mechanism for resolution is a domain turn which regulates domain-level actions. These actions can provide a multitude of functions, covering economic, research, diplomacy, and military battle resolution.
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:15 am

But there's no war to fight or support from the game itself. Wars are an optional part of the gameplay, and players often don't choose that option. Either way, your friend Sam here isn't using the same definition of 'war game' as you are, his definition of 'wargame' describes any kind of game that's played in an aggressively competitive way (and he seems to think LARPs and V:tM games never are, which is why he's attempting to use them as shorthand for cooperative games or those with sportsmanlike competition, which apparently bit him when he was younger or something).
RC - Riva wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:00 am
That the most activity garnered for the past three weeks is on the subject of whether the game is over or not, tends to give credence to the former rather than the latter. The activity level has been almost non-existent until AA asked if it is time to move on.
Efforts to get people to think the game is over, coming from players who want the game to be over for their own advantage, are not evidence that the game is or be over. They are, tautologically, evidence players who very much want to stop the game from continuing very much want to stop the game from continuing. Unconscious or deliberate, they are sabotaging, not self-justifying. But, Juan burns out and stops running because he's sick of this crap, then your prophecy is self-fulfilling. And that's the only kind of fulfillment anyone is going to get out of them.
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:16 am

It's a war game. Warring is the best and gets you whatever you want. And we like war and that's why we play it. If it ever goes to a non war game it wont go to an RPG game... it will go to a nonexistent game. The core war gamers are what keep it alive. The rest are like the masses on welfare who profit from the work of a few yet complain like they aren't parasitic vermin alive only thanks to the largesse of their hosts. I mean... why are you here if you don't like our war game? Why can't you find a game that is played the way you want? Because no one wants to play that. Those games die when they are infected with that sort of yawn fest gaming. So you came here to this healthy war gaming host as a cancerous cell from the last game you probably helped kill to kill ours as well. I mean I can't fault you....it IS what cancer cells do.




OH SHIT! He just called her a cancer cell!!!


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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:25 am

MF - Morcuan the Fay wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:15 am
Either way, your friend Sam here isn't using the same definition of 'war game' as you are, his definition of 'wargame' describes any kind of game that's played in an aggressively competitive way (and he seems to think LARPs and V:tM games never are, which is why he's attempting to use them as shorthand for cooperative games or those with sportsmanlike competition, which apparently bit him when he was younger or something).
My definition of war game is whatever Amy doesn't like. And it didn't bite me in the ass. I see a division in RPG players. The cool kids who aren't social outcasts. And the LARPers. LARPers and Vampire the Masqueraders would want to play the game your way. The cool kids want to play it as it is and was always meant to be. A war game. BOOM! You just got Chemoed!!

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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:36 am

"A wargame simulates an armed conflict, be it a battle, a campaign, or an entire war."

This game doesn't do this. It's not a simulation, for one thing, and what it narratively represents is a bunch of blokes with gods' blood ruling domains and trying to do a good job of it (as reflected through resource and time management). The wars they have are incidental, not the main focus, and comparatively lacking in detail.

"A wargame is adversarial. There must be two opposing sides whose players react intelligently to each other's decisions."

The question of intelligence quite aside, on the rare (albeit persistently recurring) occasions this game has two opposing sides, it works poorly, breaking down mechanically, socially, diplomatically, and practically for the DM's ability to continue running it. People don't sign up for this game to wage war on a foe while they froth at the mouth, they join because they want to play the game. It's miserable having to make sacrifices for a big machine that just uses you as a cog, particularly when on paper the game is about playing a divine-blooded noble scion.

The game's rules and incentive structure are all wrong for this, too. Players are rewarded for successfully competing with each other, not for defeating the enemy. Indeed the players who contribute the most to defeating an enemy are likely to be left behind and discarded as husks while a less honourable competitor within their own faction prospers by exploiting their labour. The game is set up to reward that! I've never heard of a wargame that encourages betraying the cause for personal gain. If you insist on calling this one, you might as well call a Fallout a wargame because it has factions who shoot each other in it.

"At the tactical level, the scenario is a single battle. [...] At the operational level, the scenario is a military campaign, and the basic unit of command is a large group of soldiers. [...] At the strategic level, the scenario is an entire war."

This game is none of these. The scenario is an entire setting, which may include any number of wars from zer4o to infinity.
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:39 am

BM - Braun von Mauler wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:25 am
My definition of war game is whatever Amy doesn't like. And it didn't bite me in the ass. I see a division in RPG players. The cool kids who aren't social outcasts. And the LARPers. LARPers and Vampire the Masqueraders would want to play the game your way. The cool kids want to play it as it is and was always meant to be. A war game. BOOM! You just got Chemoed!!
LARPers aren't social outcasts. They're people surrounded by as many friends as we have players in this game, each of whom can somehow afford to spend their free time chilling in the woods or a park with fancy outfits. LARPers are privileged!

I'm pretty sure the people you're thinking of, if they exist, would never be interested in playing this game, even without learning they'd have to deal with assholes who don't want the game to be fun except for those who win despite that it's not winnable, because prior to that they'd blank out upon learning that the rules are inflexible while at the same time the lore is 'if you want it, anything goes'. (They prefer it the other way around.)

The problem with trying to use whatever I dislike for definition is that I dislike more than one thing. You end up stretching yourself thin and getting confused.
Last edited by TH - The Hunt on Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:49 am

HAHA! you LARPer lover! I knew I smelled it on you.

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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:54 am

I don't love them, I envy them. Except that I don't envy their mosquitoes. Or drama. Or rain days. Or their strange customs. I do envy the food, drinks, costumes, and cool toys they have, though. And the money and stable relationships. It's a real mixed bag.

Mind you, most of my impression of LARPing probably comes from the 'Weregeek' webcomic.
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Re: Poll: New Game

Post by WB - Water's Blessing » Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:29 am

BM - Braun von Mauler wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:25 am
MF - Morcuan the Fay wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:15 am
Either way, your friend Sam here isn't using the same definition of 'war game' as you are, his definition of 'wargame' describes any kind of game that's played in an aggressively competitive way (and he seems to think LARPs and V:tM games never are, which is why he's attempting to use them as shorthand for cooperative games or those with sportsmanlike competition, which apparently bit him when he was younger or something).
My definition of war game is whatever Amy doesn't like. And it didn't bite me in the ass. I see a division in RPG players. The cool kids who aren't social outcasts. And the LARPers. LARPers and Vampire the Masqueraders would want to play the game your way. The cool kids want to play it as it is and was always meant to be. A war game. BOOM! You just got Chemoed!!
1) Traditionally, there are no "cool kids" in gaming.

2) I was a Vampire the Masquerade LARPer for about 10 years. Vampire LARPs are mostly "wargames" as RC seemed to be defining it, where various factions in the game fought over control of the city. There would also be a metaplot, but usually not that many people would connect with it. Most preferred the strategic part of the game with political machinations instead. A VtM LARP is the game that most closely approximates how Birthright is played that I have played, with influence traits playing more-or-less like holdings, people playing different "classes", shifting political alliances, etc. I'd probably play it now if there was a group my age running it (and I had the time).

EDIT: If I ever get around to running a Birthright game again, it will probably be a Birthright/VtM mash-up. :D
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