Birthright:

Just but do we want a game that way? You can also argue that you need a DC for all build actions as they builders can go on strike. The situation you describe should not be decided through a DC. It would be events or espionage attempts who can result in loyalty drop or something else.

Ruins of Empire (that crazy complicated game) had DC's for everything, including training troops.

Generally build DC's should be low if they existed. You get 500XP for a build, maybe it should be a DC5, maybe guild levels can support or oppose.

For example.

Maybe a failed Diplomacy check with a PC means a loyalty hit or a great captain or somesuch.

Maybe even a d6 roll on a variety of bad effects with exploding 6s, so there's a small chance your Duke of Orleans starts a full-on coup with a military uprising/great captain/matter of justice/etc.

Hmmmm. And I thought the failed negotiations themselves were a decent penalty.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I agree with BA.

Game of Thrones spoilers as my example.

[spoiler]
Jon Snow travels to Hardhome to negotiate an alliance with the Wildlings. Wildlings accept, but both Jon and the Wildling captain fail their roll. The Thenns reject the offer (Great Captain) , and decide to strike out on their own. Fortunately/unfortunately, they also get hit by a undead military incursion event that same turn, and their irregulars get wiped out. The Great Captain dies in the battle, resolving that event with no effort from the PC.

Jon travels south with his new allies. He to gets to carry out the agreement (bring the Wildlings south of the Wall). His great captain event (Alistair Thorne) then kicks in. Jon tries to resolve the event with a diplomacy check, but fails its. In response, GM decides that the great captain attempts an espionage (assassination) action, which somehow succeeds. The Lord Commander's watch ends.
[/spoiler]

The thing that I like about DC checks for diplomacy actions is that it makes domestic politics matter. It should be hard to form an alliance with the orogs if you are a dwarf, not because negotiations are hard but because your people hate the orogs and will rebel if you try. One reason why we see cross-cultural and cross-racial alliances emerge so often is that there is no mechanical pressure on not doing it. High DCs for talking with your racial and religious and political enemies makes those talks politically risky, as they should be, which makes maintaining the status quo more appealing (which it should be). A human Lord making friends with the elves instead of other humans should be taking a big political gamble, given the long memory of the Dominion and the gheallie Dishes before that, and DCs help capture that dimension that is currently ignored.

HK - Hamzaa al-Kalari wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:41 am

The thing that I like about DC checks for diplomacy actions is that it makes domestic politics matter. It should be hard to form an alliance with the orogs if you are a dwarf, not because negotiations are hard but because your people hate the orogs and will rebel if you try. One reason why we see cross-cultural and cross-racial alliances emerge so often is that there is no mechanical pressure on not doing it. High DCs for talking with your racial and religious and political enemies makes those talks politically risky, as they should be, which makes maintaining the status quo more appealing (which it should be). A human Lord making friends with the elves instead of other humans should be taking a big political gamble, given the long memory of the Dominion and the gheallie Dishes before that, and DCs help capture that dimension that is currently ignored.

Not sure I agree with some of those. In concept, yes, but Humans and Elves haven't had a long history of destroying each other at this point, I don't think. Wouldn't we just be getting into that?

I agree that there needs to be a bigger pull from "the people" when politics is concerned. Too many times have we seen agreements from neighbors that make an eyebrow go up as to why those races would ever agree to anything.

Base DC, then worsened by race, steps away from alignment, inherent hatreds, religious differences, history between them.

aided by diplomacy nwp, building? gifts? expedience?

I can get behind something like that. For sure. What a leader wants and what the people want can be two very different things. Can go the other way too. Offered a deal from a friendly neighbor of the same race and you declined? People get mad.