Fluff Discussions about what was going on

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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Fluff Discussions about what was going on

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:13 am

This still isn't really an explanation of Daene's motivations, just a series of justifications. But never mind, I regret asking.

'Pain in the ass and incredibly annoying' though--yeah, that's not going to take. 'Pain in the ass and incredibly annoying' describes placing an illegal settlement in the middle of someone else's territory. Namel was demanding the claim revert to its owner, at the time Daene had promised to do it. That had been an agreement made as a compromise to avoid war. If holding him to that is 'being a pain is the ass', so is arresting someone for aiding and abetting a crime. You don't just tell the local authorities "It's okay, I've worked out 'an arrangement' with the shopkeeper."

I guess Daene didn't respect Namel's authority and failed to see himself as profiting from a crime or behaving corruptly. OK. Hence the 'stop resisting arrest!' relationship for the last few turns. I'm more sure than ever his motivation was contrary to his alignment, after this conversation, though.

Technically, Namel had nothing to do with the invasion of Polska beyond having set the agenda to oppose Daene. Misha had his own reasons to do it, he wanted to unite the realms. And he succeeded; before any battles or occupation, the SRF and Polska agreed by treaty to become the 'Sky Serpent Federation'. Lekomira would become the new head of government, then Siocce and Misha would overthrow her with a confidence agreement, Olaf's observers would come watch how the government functioned, and the Federation would seek to invite the clans and the gnolls to join.

There were good odds Misha would have been replaced by a new leader during the elections (that self-styled 'Prince' from the latest event). Hunting Namel down wouldn't have changed a thing--she'd become an unblooded wannabe martial arts student, even before the war declaration--and he'd have had to figure out she was attending Rhyel's academy and which of the arrivals was her and which was her body double, or killed both.

Murdering Misha aka Nehid? I guess that would have worked, if he did it during the elections.
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DB - Diarmuid
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Re: Fluff Discussions about what was going on

Post by DB - Diarmuid » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:34 am

Republic of Cariele | DB | Camlann(S) - LN ( 1 / 5 ) | -- | LL(1) | LL(1) | -- |
| | | | | NS(0) | |

I can guarantee you Daene wasn't profiting on this province. Considering he was training troops and flagging them to Lekomira (no cost to Polska) and increasing Polska's law holdings (again, no cost to Polska), there is no way to see the 'riches' of Camlann doing anything for him. He was already capped on RP from his own northern holdings.

And yes, Namel had no authority in Daene's eyes - just as he had none in hers.

The invasion of Polska was initiated by Namel, Daene had no reason to do anything to Misha. And given your statements, it only serves to prove Daene's suspicions that Namel was not the friend to Polska she claimed to be.

And the gnolls were never joining (and I presume Olaf would not have been as well).

And again, the why was to deny Anuire the lands of Polska. Everything you just said basically says Polska ends up under Anuire. Namel was a vassal to Anuire. If Lekomira ended up a vassal to Misha/Nehid/Namel it's the same thing as being a vassal to Anuire. Everything Daene did in the south was to keep Anuire from gaining the lands of Polska (narrowly averted that winter, even with the annoyances from Namel).

Basically there was a tiger (Anuire), which left unattended was going to eat everyone. And there was a horse fly (Namel) which could give annoying bites, but ultimately was inconsequential to the greater effort of stopping the tiger. If it bit enough though, it was going to be swatted.
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TH - The Hunt
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Re: Fluff Discussions about what was going on

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:08 am

Again, Namel was at the Academy when the invasion occurred this turn. There was no prior invasion. Misha was regent because Namel was gone, and had transferred her bloodline to him previously, in 28.1.

Many regents would see gaining a province as 'profiting' even if it costs them more than it's worth. (Oh social commentary. I think I've read several novels about that.) If profit wasn't the motive, maybe he wanted to assert his authority, to prove he was in charge (lawful and evil), to demonstrate it was inside his jurisdiction.

Namel wanted to do that, too, though she also wanted to restore the land's rightful ruler (good), punish the wicked (lawful and good... though Daene was in the way; Arawn was 'the wicked', at first) and oppose the authority of the Republic on principle (chaotic). While opening the province to trade and development could have been a motivation, it wasn't really one she thought about. Likewise, the idea that Daene might use it as a base of operations was a rationalization for doing something about it, not one of the reasons...

Namel was only a vassal to Anuire for the purposes of her (two, level 2) human provinces. Siocce's human provinces didn't count even while Siocce was her vassal, so neither would Lekomira's. The only way Lekomira's provinces could have become vassals to Anuire is if she gave them away. As for becoming NS's vassal, that's just not how the SRF worked. All three of the party leaders were going to be co-equal. Marrying Misha wouldn't do it either. The only reason Misha would be in charge after the election was because SC agreed to vote with him, otherwise it would have defaulted to Lekomira since her realm had more seats. Her being the leader wouldn't have made the others her vassals, either. If she'd married him, she'd still outrank him in Polska--she'd still rule the provinces, even if he took over the law holdings.

(It's understandable feudal rulers might have trouble with the idea of rule by council.)

I don't understand where Daene could have gotten the idea that Namel was insignificant next to Anuire, or irrelevant to defeating it. Maybe he got a skewed report of how badly the war went for Namel when she and Wszebora had to fight it alone, or maybe he got a false report of the treaty. Either way, after all the talk about her somehow being out of touch with reality, that distortion stands out a lot. The SRF was more powerful than Polska was.
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DB - Diarmuid
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Re: Fluff Discussions about what was going on

Post by DB - Diarmuid » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:15 am

The SRF was already in Anuires pocket, Polska wasn't. Keeping Polska out of Anuire's pocket was the goal.

Daene never saw Camlann as a gain. It was a constant reminder of a number of things, none good.
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Re: Fluff Discussions about what was going on

Post by DB - Diarmuid » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:20 am

Additionally, while you say Siocce wasn't a vassal to Anuire, she said otherwise in discussions (and was present at the council) so for all intents and purposes she was a full vassal to Anuire and the same could be expected for Polska.
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Re: Fluff Discussions about what was going on

Post by TH - The Hunt » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:30 am

'In Anuire's pocket'? Had to look up the idiom to be sure that didn't make sense... 'Under one's the direct control or influence, especially due to financial reasons.' So... that was completely untrue. I mean, they could threaten to invade but they had no direct control or influence. What they did have was countered by me also being in a position to burn down their things.

Skipping over Daene's motives again...

If Siocce was a full vassal to Anuire, a) she managed to keep it completely a secret from me, and wasn't about to let on and b) she still wasn't bound by the treaty. She had my and RL's temples in her provinces, even her human provinces, not SK's. She had her own law and guild holdings and MD's sources. Anuire had no presence in her lands, perhaps not even knowledge of some of them. She wasn't paying tribute or providing them soldiers or ships, those went to me. And I never took orders, I was neutral until Turn 29. That's not 'a full vassal'. She sent ships to help Gaelin as privateers, but that was ordered by NS. Gaelin wasn't even expecting it.

If that's what you call 'a full vassal', it's completely meaningless. There were few sovereign realms more sovereign than that.
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Re: Fluff Discussions about what was going on

Post by DB - Diarmuid » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:41 am

You can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.

Siocce traveled with and adventured with Anuire. She sat in their conferences. She claimed to be a vassal to Namel and a member of the Anuirean Protectorate. All members of Anuire were vassals to Gaelin.

If she wasn't a vassal, it isn't anyone's fault for believing otherwise based on available information and discussions with her.
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KB - Kargrim Bronzebeard
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Re: Fluff Discussions about what was going on

Post by KB - Kargrim Bronzebeard » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:02 am

Grycemark had few secrets really as a LG realm. My only secret was my gnoll-human hybrid breeding programme that got outed and stopped in short order. That actually started innocently. House Gryce had a prior history of non-human marriages from the Giantdowns game so it felt IC but the stat line of the hybrids was awesome so wanted to create regiments of super soldiers. Never got properly going though due to gnoll political changes. Later considered summoning gnolls just to enhance breeding stock but it was too politically dangerous to pursue this by this stage.

OOC - Grycemark was not min-maxed enough with regards to adventures or economy. I did not focus enough on money/shrines OOC and just developed IC as a landed wizard so I was totally broke at the start of the game. Ended up having to develop guilds just to cover costs which worked better until I got invaded.

Early phase - Met Brom and Bors and got on with them. Interacted with Corbin and was exploring closer ties until the Halfling/dwarf fall out. Got all the land I wanted and had no ambitions on anyone. Pleased to worship Moradin to get a god to worship again.

Early Republic Phase - Joined for mutual defence and because genuinely believed in the idea. Other regents promised to establish holdings in Grycemark but these promises were low down on their priorities so Grycemark remained largely guild/temple free. My own source/law development was also lagging behind population expansion. The Anuirean regents visited me at this time and Grycemark met them in a friendly fashion.

Anuirean invasion of The Maw - Grycemark honoured the treaty of mutual defence and felt sorry for the gnolls but did not blame herself for the attack. Unhappy that we were killing fellow Anuireans and wanted the war to end asap. Felt that the gains of the war e.g. boarded ships should have been shared out as we just lost our army and got nothing.

Republican phase post war - Gradual disillusionment. A lot of the Republic just seemed focused on Anuire's destruction's which Grycemark was very opposed to. Tried to influence the Republic to a different course but failed. Culturally Grycemark was more concerned with the hippy culture of Rhyel which we thought was an abomination. By this stage I was playing two factions of my court which had different objectives - one pro-Republic the other strongly opposed to further war with our kin from Dhoesone and wanting more cultural links with Anuire.

Approved Kragan's expansion in Grycemark at this time as I wanted more development and he was a friend/son-in-law plus I had given up on Daene's guilder at this stage. Human League temples started appearing at this time encouraged by the pro-Anuire faction. Dwarven Human League allied temples appeared as well and most of the population became humanists. Ector then left the Republic and Grycemark was very unhappy about the threats he got. Aeric stood down for his son Harald at this time partially so that Grycemark's ruler could relate to Anuirean factions without too much taint with regards to the gnoll experiment.

The dwarven temple swap screwed me over at this time as I was already on a path from the Republic to the Kingdom. If it had happened earlier it might have worked to keep Grycemark in the Republic as it would have strengthened the pro-Republic faction but it was too late by this stage. After that I more or less got invaded by Corbin's undead until the end of the game and was glad Anuire came to my aid. Real life got a real pain in this period as well so my activity was not what is should have been.

Grycemark's Opinions of Other Factions

Republican Factions
Brom - High regard despite the fact he divested me, made it hardest to leave the Republic, pro-Republican faction leaders sent their youngest children to seek shelter with Brom when facing annihilation at the undead's hands and planned to try to send refugees to Brom's lands when they learned of the invasion to come.
Bors - Liked but did not understand how and why he abandoned his people.
Daene - At the time Grycemark left the Republic regard was still reasonable. Felt Daene was trying to do what he thought right but was misguided and committed to a path of blood that we could not support. Opinion darkened considerably after he started murdering people and conspiring with the others to invade us. By the end felt he had fallen to evil.
Arawn - Felt that others had a point with regards to his territorial aggrandisement all around the map. Disagreed with the idea of him becoming a god due to his character. Never made this an issue but it turned me off the Republican faith whereas I was happy worshipping Moradin. Never especially close but no enmity. Did not know he was moving from the Republic to Anuire until had joined the Kingdom.
Arndir - Felt obsessed with destroying Anuire. Disliked discussions on how to attack Ector after he left the Republic. No personal enmity.
The Maw - Liked the old leader more than the new one. Again felt was obsessed with destroying Anuire (albeit with valid reasons).
Ector - High regard, agreed with the reasons he gave for leaving the Republic and followed him. Ector's joining of the Kingdom was an important factor in Grycemark's joining of it.

Thirrott - High regard

Anuirean Factions
Kragan - High regard.
Seamus - Little interaction but relations were friendly
Shireen/Gaelin - Opinion was coloured at the start by the information given to Grycemark by others, as Grycemark got to know them never viewed them in the same negative light as others in the Republic did, by the end high regard, fulfilled commitments in spades to come to the faithful's/invaded vassal's aid.

Northern Factions
Viewed Rhyel's religion as a perversion (somewhat hypocritically given my gnoll loving). Limited interactions. Was very keen to stop Rhyel's religion from gaining a foothold in Grycemark. Other than that happy to leave them to themselves. Opinion darkened when they conspired with Daene and Corbin to invade me.

Middle Factions
Corbin - Wary opinion at the start given the history in the Giantdowns. Relations were friendly but guarded and not hostile in any way from Grycemark's position. Opinion dropped to the lowest of anyone after he keep invading me with undead while saying his allies were making him do it.
Relations with the other middle factions were limited bar a trading agreement with Thamiel. No real warmth. Valen came across as the least friendly of my neighbours throughout the game. Relations deteriorated by the end as I believed them in league with the invasion of Grycemark.

Southern Factions
Grycemark felt Namel was an irritating troublemaker and wanted nothing to do with her. She was far away though.
Limited interactions with the rest.

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WM - The Waste Mage
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Re: Fluff Discussions about what was going on

Post by WM - The Waste Mage » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:53 am

AG - Harald Gryce wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:02 am

Arawn - Felt that others had a point with regards to his territorial aggrandisement all around the map. Disagreed with the idea of him becoming a god due to his character. Never made this an issue but it turned me off the Republican faith whereas I was happy worshipping Moradin. Never especially close but no enmity. Did not know he was moving from the Republic to Anuire until had joined the Kingdom.
I apologize for my spy that gained knowledge of the coming invasion of Grycemark negating a surprise turn and letting Shireen know to be there. I apologize for dropping a ley line into Southgift to trap a crap load of undead and delay them long enough for you and others to muster and for Anuire to get units up there. I apologize for my territorial aggrandizement that netted me less provinces than you owned. I assure you it will not happen again.

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KB - Kargrim Bronzebeard
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Re: Fluff Discussions about what was going on

Post by KB - Kargrim Bronzebeard » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:22 am

I apologize I had overlooked all that when I wrote the above. I was around very little that period OOC so hadnt registered that Arawn did all that. The assessment above does not fairly reflect that.

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