War Rules

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TH - The Hunt
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Re: War Rules

Post by TH - The Hunt » Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:59 pm

I assume the 'blood penalty' you're referring to is for breaking an oath of vassalage. There's no penalty for winning a war, anyway. I don't think there needs to be any exemption, an oath is an oath. Though a CN regent probably isn't going to think about oaths the same way as an LG one does.

There's already an option to force vassalage, it just means you tell someone that unless they agree to a vassalage contract--or more likely, unless they surrender unconditionally--they'll have everything they own divested or destroyed. For some reason this doesn't seem to happen, but it's expected to happen, and the result would be like what you describe.
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SG - Sigrun Godefroy
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Re: War Rules

Post by SG - Sigrun Godefroy » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:44 pm

Ya. Its that if you force someone to be a vassal through war it should be a penalty on the main ruler not the vassal. Its like adding more shackles on some one and negates some dynamic play that could happen.

A vassal gaining independence is allready risky enough. To add more penalties to trying to gain freedom just sucks
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TH - The Hunt
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Re: War Rules

Post by TH - The Hunt » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:43 pm

Regency loss doesn't make a course of action more difficult, except that they lose any unspent RP, but that's less of a problem when the regency loss is voluntary. It's more just a mechanism to discourage regents from taking actions their own domain would consider unrighteous. Which is why it doesn't seem like a good idea to give someone a pass on that.

If the overlord doesn't fulfill their obligations to their vassal, then they're the one breaking the vassalage agreement, not the vassal. It seems reasonable to expect the vassal to wait for that, if they don't want to look like a troublemaker.
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Re: War Rules

Post by SG - Sigrun Godefroy » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:50 pm

Well would you say a lord who was forced to bend the knee his people would be in favour of gaining independence more than a peaceful coexistence. And the vassalship terms are vague. Pretty much all penalty is on the vassal and not the main regent.

If a regent is unable to reclaim a vassal they should take a hit. With a varrying amount like a small hit if they peacefully let them go. Compared to a large hit should they lose a war to keep them a vassal.
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Re: War Rules

Post by TH - The Hunt » Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:24 pm

I don't see why people would be any happier about a vassalage agreement if their lord signed it without being coerced. If anything, it seems they'd be more accepting of one that was forced, given the alternative.

It'd be nice if vassalage agreements followed a template that included mutual responsibilities, since when they don't there's little reason to agree with them and the results are bound to be unstable. But I don't think it's intended for the game rules to force that, instead, by playing, we can learn the hard way.

As it's written, someone who fails to respond to an event--and a vassal declaring independence is certainly an event--already loses regency.
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Re: War Rules

Post by SG - Sigrun Godefroy » Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:41 pm

well that's why i'd like otions for vassalage or outrright conquering. if you install your own administration/law then there should be severe unrest in that province for a while, depending on province size of course, with a higher rate of bad events happening there. So for each level of law burned there might be that many turns of really bad unrest, and if they burn other holdings penalties should take longer to get rid of. of course, you can slaughter, or displace the residents making them refugees, one would make people know you're pretty evil, the other while not evil you'll have rebel issues for a while but can deal with it. the third option would to name some one from that nations leadership or royal family as your vassal and alllow them to rule it in your name, and the fourth would be to come to an agreement before war, or to offer it before hand.

It would be up to the Dm to determine the level of coercion that forces the person to become a vassal and if it's a mutual relationship then there should be a clause to allow a vassal to declare independence if conditions are met.

Pretty much when conquering a land there should be more options with more consequences, and more autonomy can be things like, allowing them to practice their own religion, handle their own guilds, or even have their own law.
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DM Juan
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Re: War Rules

Post by DM Juan » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:21 pm

Well, AF you were nominally the vassal to Dhoesone last game after the war, right? You two seemed to avoid conflict with each other after that... it is up to the players to role play it. If the liege has limited ability to enforce anything, you probably want to be a fairly lenient liege. If you have the power/ability to destroy your vassal easily, well the vassal better do what you say, right?

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TH - The Hunt
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Re: War Rules

Post by TH - The Hunt » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:40 pm

Partially, yeah. Very much at arm's length, since only two of my eight provinces were even nominally subject to Dhoesone.

Destruction doesn't benefit anyone, so even when an unconditional surrender can be forced, a good conqueror will give the conquered a reason to cooperate aside from 'or else'. When the exchange goes something like, 'What's in it for me?' 'You get to live.' ...It makes sense to reply, 'Yes, and what else?', because the would-be conqueror's still expecting more than that from the defeated. Lots of great emperors from history turned their toughest enemies into members of their inner circle.
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Re: War Rules

Post by DM Juan » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:32 pm

Leadership Risk:

Heroes have to be attached to a unit to have an impact on the battlefield. They have to make a survival check every time their unit is destroyed.

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Re: War Rules

Post by DM Juan » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:33 pm

If the unit is destroyed, you are moved to a new unit. Make sure you put a list in your war action on what units you go with

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