War, Leadership Units

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TH - The Hunt
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by TH - The Hunt » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:40 pm

It still counts. If an army is in a province for 50 years, and another army is in the province for 25 years, the former still counts as the defender if a fight breaks out. There's no such thing as 'attack' or 'non-attack' movements. It's just movement, even if one uses Declare War and the other is a free action.
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MS - Meaghan Smith
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by MS - Meaghan Smith » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:43 pm

There clearly is attack and non-attack movement. Attack movement is that which brings you directly into conflict (ie moving from a province you own into a province you don't own). Non-attack movement is the movement most often used, whereby forces move about from X to Y without issue.

In any case, I'll wait for Juan to clarify anything he feels needs clarifying. Back and forth with you doesn't change anything.
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by TH - The Hunt » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:50 pm

There's free action movement and Declare War movement, but you can target your own realm or a neutral realm with Declare War so that you can use war moves there or ignore their borders. So even 'Declare War movement' doesn't have to represent an attack. Conversely, you can use free action movement to prepare to attack an ally, or to attack rebels, brigands, monsters, et cetera within your own realm or that of an ally. Whether this 'an issue' or not doesn't have to do with the type of action taken, but instead whether there's resistance to it.
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DM Juan
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by DM Juan » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:59 pm

1) Movement:
-A) Ships can move their movement-rate provinces per War Move; loading/moving/unloading takes at least 1 full war move (within movement-rate provinces).
-B) Movement takes up the War Move(s) involved. Movement is limited by unit movement rate compared to terrain. Therefore, eg: A unit with Move 2 takes 2 war moves to reach a Heavy Forest province; battle would take place in War Move 3. Crossing a River takes up a full war move. Roads reduce all movement costs to 1.
2) Battle (1 war move = 3 rounds of battle); battle starts during the movement in which it is initiated. Battles use up any movement left during the war moves in which they take place.
2A) All hits taken by units stick with the army until end of turn (this is also already a rule, but to reinforce it's existence).
2B) Each War Move IN A PARTICULAR province requires a PC/LT having used a Declare War (you can have 1 war leader simultaneously occupy 7 provinces, but not simultaneously occupy and pillage the same province).
2C) You cannot undertake the same War Move in the same province, at the same time (ie, you cannot have 2 armies pillage a province at the same time, but you could have 1 province-level army pillage a province, and another province-level army drive down sources simultaneously).
3) Occupation takes 3 war moves (1 Action) to complete; this takes up all the war moves involved
4) You may Pillage once per 3 war moves (taking up all 3 war moves to do).
4A) Each level of Castle protects a level of the province from Pillaging.
5) You cannot disrupt occupation or pillaging attempts by starting battles. Once someone defeats the defenders the first time, and commences occupation, you can only dislodge it by dislodging the invaders (that is, if they start occupation in action 1, war move 3, and you fight them in action 2 war moves 1 and 2, but they are still there with province_level units, they will have successfully occupied the province) - occupation of holdings can occur simultaneously as occupation of the province.
6) Besiege Castle @ 1 level per turn - automatically occurring after first use of action, unless # of troops falls below castle level.
7) Assault Castle via Siegecraft NWP or Artillery-type Unit - reduces castle @ 1 per action [ie, per 3 war moves].

These Actions can be performed after Occupation is completed (can be performed concurrent with each other with enough units and command elements).
1) Destroy Building [Castle levels above province/holding level may protect 1 building per level of overage] - requires the province to be occupied or besieged before this can be done.
2) Drive down source level by 1 (this requires province owner, or any wizard with a holding in the province to notify the commander of the attack, or for the leader of the assault to be a wizard.)
3) Drive Down holding (any non-source) to 0 - this first requires the holding/province to be occupied.
4) Destroy Holding that is at 0 in a province you own. You must first occupy the province. You cannot destroy holdings in a foreign realm (see p66-67 of rulebook)

Agreed, rewrote #2

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DM Juan
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by DM Juan » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:01 pm

The aggressor is the attacker. Sometimes this creates "weird" situations, but for purposes of terrain modifiers, the aggressor is the attacker.
So if you are attempting to self-occupy, and the owner of a holding in the province is being targeted to have their holding occupied, if they move in an army to disrupt, they are the defender.

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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by BS - Torpor » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:04 pm

Im somewhat confused about some things. A declare war lasts the entire action, so someone declares war in action 1, they can then still for examples occupy in action 2, despite the regent taking another action in action 2?
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DM Juan
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by DM Juan » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:51 pm

They can finish the occupation that started in action 1, in action 2. They wouldn't be able to subsequently also drive down holdings, as currently written. It basically forces two actions to do it with military, which I think on balance is a good thing. It shouldn't be ridiculously easier to get rid of holdings with war actions than with contesting.

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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by WB - Water's Blessing » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:09 pm

It should be harder to do via military means than via contestation, or otherwise military will always be the preferred route. Really, all you should be able to do with military units is to destroy. You can pillage the province (which will drive down holdings as you round up and kill everyone), you can destroy nature (pillage sources, essentially -- salt the earth so nobody gets any magic), and that's about it. Soldiers are not sheriffs.

Ultimately, attacking holdings should be a police action, not a military action. At the very least, it should take an espionage action per holding per province to attack militarily (you have to identify whose houses to burn down while their family is inside with their soldiers).
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by MS - Meaghan Smith » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:30 pm

I can see the espionage action to eliminate the last vestiges (a level 0 holding). However wiping out guilds, temples, and organized law -- military is very good at knocking it down. Not so good at putting it back up.
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TH - The Hunt
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Re: War, Leadership Units

Post by TH - The Hunt » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:00 pm

It doesn't need to be harder to eliminate holdings with occupation for it to not always be the preferred route. Contesting costs only RP. Occupying a province, even if there's no resistance, costs a minimum of 4 GB to maintain the units and pay for the occupation... unless you're levying the province to do it, in which case there's heavy collateral damage instead.

Someone who relies on occupation to keep their own lands 'pure' will have trouble avoiding rebellion, and someone who relies on driving down enemy holdings to defeat them will suffer heavy attrition (in more senses than the game mechanic called that) and won't be able to conquer anything intact. (Plus, not owning the province, the holdings will never really be gone...)
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