Class Balancing
- TPK - The Pirates
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Re: Class Balancing
For domains and random adventures, a guilder is better. For main adventures, a thief is far more useful. For multi-classes, a guilder isn't eligible, hence thief has value there.
Similar for fighter, they have multi-class potential whereas the other two warrior sorts do not. Additionally, fighters are by nature intended to be inferior to rangers and paladins, hence the inherent stat requirements. Not everything is supposed to be equal at all times. This was the issue with 4E as I recall (it's been a while though, so could easily be off on that).
As to RP generation, it is not established this is not a major factor for either warrior or rogue. In fact, RP generation is a key component to rogues and fighters. Without depth of guilds, trade routes are ineffective/inefficient. The same goes for law holdings. A warrior who limits himself to law only in his one or two provinces is clearly not utilizing one of his key advantages.
Each of the primary class types has an area where they are most effective.
As to rogues being as effective at building armies as warriors, this is clearly not the case. Warriors easily outstrip them in TP and while maintaining law holdings is easy, continually expanding and refining trade routes can be an action sink which becomes a disadvantage in military actions if there is not a warrior tied in to assist.
Similar for fighter, they have multi-class potential whereas the other two warrior sorts do not. Additionally, fighters are by nature intended to be inferior to rangers and paladins, hence the inherent stat requirements. Not everything is supposed to be equal at all times. This was the issue with 4E as I recall (it's been a while though, so could easily be off on that).
As to RP generation, it is not established this is not a major factor for either warrior or rogue. In fact, RP generation is a key component to rogues and fighters. Without depth of guilds, trade routes are ineffective/inefficient. The same goes for law holdings. A warrior who limits himself to law only in his one or two provinces is clearly not utilizing one of his key advantages.
Each of the primary class types has an area where they are most effective.
As to rogues being as effective at building armies as warriors, this is clearly not the case. Warriors easily outstrip them in TP and while maintaining law holdings is easy, continually expanding and refining trade routes can be an action sink which becomes a disadvantage in military actions if there is not a warrior tied in to assist.
- YK - Yuri Khavlor
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Re: Class Balancing
The TP generated by the warrior is not useful without Gold. Law holdings increase domain maintenance. Do not generate gold (except when the province is controlled and allows higher taxes (which has been nerfed). Law claims at best annoys, and roleplay wise it hard to justify doing except against rivals.HA - Haelyn wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:37 pmAs to rogues being as effective at building armies as warriors, this is clearly not the case. Warriors easily outstrip them in TP and while maintaining law holdings is easy, continually expanding and refining trade routes can be an action sink which becomes a disadvantage in military actions if there is not a warrior tied in to assist.
A Guilder has 2 less WP then a fighter. (less than 2 when you consider they level faster then fighter) They are not quickly outstripped.
A non-land Wizard, Priest, Rogue are all viable, but not desireable
A non-land Warrior is not viable.
YK - Yuri Khavlor
Lord Mayor of Lyssan
“Nature is not cruel, but pitilessly indifferent. The hardest lesson for one to learn, is to admit that things might be neither good nor evil, but simply callous -- indifferent to all suffering"
Lord Mayor of Lyssan
“Nature is not cruel, but pitilessly indifferent. The hardest lesson for one to learn, is to admit that things might be neither good nor evil, but simply callous -- indifferent to all suffering"
- TPK - The Pirates
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Re: Class Balancing
The TPs for warriors come in faster than rogues. A 9th level fighter has a minimum of 7 TPs and the 10th level rogue has 4. When scaled across multiple train actions it isn't even a contest.BSB - Blue Skull Barons wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:48 pmThe TP generated by the warrior is not useful without Gold. Law holdings increase domain maintenance. Do not generate gold (except when the province is controlled and allows higher taxes (which has been nerfed). Law claims at best annoys, and roleplay wise it hard to justify doing except against rivals.HA - Haelyn wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:37 pmAs to rogues being as effective at building armies as warriors, this is clearly not the case. Warriors easily outstrip them in TP and while maintaining law holdings is easy, continually expanding and refining trade routes can be an action sink which becomes a disadvantage in military actions if there is not a warrior tied in to assist.
A Guilder has 2 less WP then a fighter. (less than 2 when you consider they level faster then fighter) They are not quickly outstripped.
A non-land Wizard, Priest, Rogue are all viable, but not desireable
A non-land Warrior is not viable.
Law holders should always be taxing, if not they've given up one of their advantages by fiat.
A non-landed warrior should definitely be looking at the mercenary option (or take someone's land).
- YK - Yuri Khavlor
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Re: Class Balancing
Warrior 4 + 1 per 3 levels
vs
Guilder 2 + 1 per 3 levels
Law holders can law claim (transferring a GB from someone else) not tax.
If I continue as BSB it will 100% be a Guilder + Training Grounds domain and outstrip all the other fighters who cant afford their training grounds or units.
Fighter is easily outstripped by the guilder at what it is supposed to do best.
vs
Guilder 2 + 1 per 3 levels
Law holders can law claim (transferring a GB from someone else) not tax.
If I continue as BSB it will 100% be a Guilder + Training Grounds domain and outstrip all the other fighters who cant afford their training grounds or units.
Fighter is easily outstripped by the guilder at what it is supposed to do best.
YK - Yuri Khavlor
Lord Mayor of Lyssan
“Nature is not cruel, but pitilessly indifferent. The hardest lesson for one to learn, is to admit that things might be neither good nor evil, but simply callous -- indifferent to all suffering"
Lord Mayor of Lyssan
“Nature is not cruel, but pitilessly indifferent. The hardest lesson for one to learn, is to admit that things might be neither good nor evil, but simply callous -- indifferent to all suffering"
- TH - The Hunt
- Emperor
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Re: Class Balancing
I'm not too fond of the idea of buildings making the most wealthy and powerful realms more efficient than others, anyway. We could have all kinds of megaprojects to use as gold sinks, with more esoteric benefits, instead. Shipyards, Training Grounds, Cathedrals and Monoliths all have this problem. The other buildings I like better, in concept.
They also can't be captured or transferred, or used by anyone but the builder, which adds a weird status quo bias effect, making the game less dynamic and unpredictable than it would be if these buildings weren't available. It also makes capturing a capital province much more punishing than it probably should be, which (in my estimation) will make wars less strategically interesting. Especially the wars that follow the first successful one.
I don't think law claims should be seen as 'an annoyance'. To me it seems that if the law doesn't make claims, that's the perk of an unusually good relationship between the law holder and the other holding owners. (Unless the law isn't controlled by the province regent, in which case 'an annoyance' probably describes the entire situation.)
They also can't be captured or transferred, or used by anyone but the builder, which adds a weird status quo bias effect, making the game less dynamic and unpredictable than it would be if these buildings weren't available. It also makes capturing a capital province much more punishing than it probably should be, which (in my estimation) will make wars less strategically interesting. Especially the wars that follow the first successful one.
I don't think law claims should be seen as 'an annoyance'. To me it seems that if the law doesn't make claims, that's the perk of an unusually good relationship between the law holder and the other holding owners. (Unless the law isn't controlled by the province regent, in which case 'an annoyance' probably describes the entire situation.)
"The Hunt rides. The Hunt protects."
- TPK - The Pirates
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Re: Class Balancing
Law claim or tax, that piece is just semantics. They can make money off of other people's holdings (not a lot certainly, but some).BSB - Blue Skull Barons wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:05 pmWarrior 4 + 1 per 3 levels
vs
Guilder 2 + 1 per 3 levels
Law holders can law claim (transferring a GB from someone else) not tax.
If I continue as BSB it will 100% be a Guilder + Training Grounds domain and outstrip all the other fighters who cant afford their training grounds or units.
Fighter is easily outstripped by the guilder at what it is supposed to do best.
Guilder can certainly go training grounds, and very potent by end game, however a lot of actions will be being sunk into building out those trade routes.
Fighter is not supposed to exist in a vacuum though, nor can anyone else really. I certainly don't disagree that a guilder can make more money though.
- YK - Yuri Khavlor
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Re: Class Balancing
Also to clarify because it's not been transferred to this board from the previous.
We are not using combat and tactics: 'Warriors can buy WP with their bonus NWP from high Int'
Do the original reasons for this prohibition still exist?
Similarly what is the concern with weapon mastery, for not using those fighter benefits?
We are not using combat and tactics: 'Warriors can buy WP with their bonus NWP from high Int'
Do the original reasons for this prohibition still exist?
Similarly what is the concern with weapon mastery, for not using those fighter benefits?
YK - Yuri Khavlor
Lord Mayor of Lyssan
“Nature is not cruel, but pitilessly indifferent. The hardest lesson for one to learn, is to admit that things might be neither good nor evil, but simply callous -- indifferent to all suffering"
Lord Mayor of Lyssan
“Nature is not cruel, but pitilessly indifferent. The hardest lesson for one to learn, is to admit that things might be neither good nor evil, but simply callous -- indifferent to all suffering"
- TPK - The Pirates
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Re: Class Balancing
I had thought weapon mastery for single-class fighters was being allowed. It's certainly not game breaking and does give a straight fighter something to call their own.
- YK - Yuri Khavlor
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Re: Class Balancing
Banning mastery was a post in the previous forum before the migration.
It was confirmed in one of the earlier Main adventures.
I am sure there are a number of unstated rules that are carried forward, that never made their way into the rules section.
It was confirmed in one of the earlier Main adventures.
I am sure there are a number of unstated rules that are carried forward, that never made their way into the rules section.
YK - Yuri Khavlor
Lord Mayor of Lyssan
“Nature is not cruel, but pitilessly indifferent. The hardest lesson for one to learn, is to admit that things might be neither good nor evil, but simply callous -- indifferent to all suffering"
Lord Mayor of Lyssan
“Nature is not cruel, but pitilessly indifferent. The hardest lesson for one to learn, is to admit that things might be neither good nor evil, but simply callous -- indifferent to all suffering"
- TPK - The Pirates
- Posts: 308
- Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:42 pm
Re: Class Balancing
That's unfortunate, weapon mastery was the best thing for fighters and setting them apart from paladins and rangers.